Building a slightly tweeked 2v drysump motor

Thank you very much Dave!!!

 

Pardon me if this was already answered. I have skimmed through the thread but not read every entry.
My question has to do with Cost. or relative cost.

Is this engine rebuild costing more or less using these modified or alternative parts than using all the stock 308 parts. It is a very interesting thread concerning what will fit. Also, I would figure that it is easier to get 360 parts as they are more recent and plentiful than 308 parts.

Plus the added strength in the engine is a bonus.

I was just wondering if it was going to save any money over a regular build or cost more.

Thanks
Charlie

 

Cost !!! It always cost more than you think , and then there is the " while you are in there " ???
The big issues with this motor was I needed a new block $1000 ( through a fellow Fchatter , very lucky to find !! ) crank ( which came with a complete motor in bits from the UK ) 2 "C" weighted std steel rods ( which I could not find !! )
So I bought a " Fire " 360 long block which mk e salvaged 7 of his V12 rods out of and we did a swop for some of his rods as he needed 12 of a similar weight rod . Which I found out later was vital as you can't believe how much material you need to remove from a Ti rod to change it's weight .
I still have most of the 360 stuff for another project . At some stage I might try and fit the 360 liners/pistons and crank into my old block . The reason I could not use my old block was some of the cylinder head studs were damaged removing the heads . And the block was badly corroded around the base of the liners where the Orings go . Using the bigger 360 liners means this will require maching and will sort the corrotion issue out . Just need to get the stud out ??
I managed to sell alot of the UK motor bits to guys here in SA so that kind of paid for it and I still have a spare set of 2V heads and a brand new set of carbs !!
The Ti Pankl rod bolts were way cheaper from Pankl than the std steel rod bolt and nut .
Pistons were from JE and were supprisingly cheap . Bearings and gaskits were from Superformance and the " normal " price
I have lightened the flywheel which we did in my shop , made vernier cam pulleys and ally tensioner bearing outers .
It all ads up to a fair bit of money , but hopefully when I'm finished I'll have some bit's left over to sell or keep as spares .

 

Yes there are always surprises! Sounds like everything is coming together and you can see light at the end of this project. The cam verniers sound very interesting. Did you male them from the original cam gears? The only difficult part of degreeing these cams is moving the silly cam gears around.

 

Is there no windage tray in the dry sump motors?

 

No , sump plate is flat . There is no crank cover either ( like the 360 ) , but then the sump is much deeper ?

 

The "crank cover" you're referring to is what I was thinking about when I said windage tray ... it's on all the 308 wet sump motors and I trimmed one of mine to work with my dry sump set up ... interesting it's not on the dry sump 308 cars ... I was under the impression that even with a dry sump system management of the air/oil around the crank is critical even if there isn't a gallon or two of oil sloshing around below it.

Sounds like you're saying the crank cover is on the 360 motors even with the dry sump.

cheers

 

Ok here is a pic of the 360 one . I thought you were talking about the baffeling in the sump , sorry I got it wrong .
I got my motor in pieces so possibly there should be one , but I don't see it in all my bit's !!!!! Hope not as the bottom end is all buttoned up . I didn't see any mounting points either .
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Cool pic of the 360 pump/internals.

Your block looks like it has the same mounting points as the wet sump block ... sorry to be the one to point that out . The tray mounts to the 2 bosses on each side on the inside of the pain rail.

Maybe someone can comment on the importance ... seems like it is kinda ... especially since you're going for power ... not just a "rebuild".

cheers

P.S. Send me that 360 lump and I'll make a couple of adapters to bolt it onto a 308 gearbox .

 

Takes sharp eyes !! Ok this is where it get's a bit complicated ?? The pic here is my original block , no noticeable mounting studs/ threads other than the drysump points .
The dry sump block I found someone had used in a longditudinal install . As all three side engine mount holes have been threaded ? At this time someone also modified the block to take a windage tray and obviously a shallow sump .I have had to machine a spacer under one of the scavenge pump mounts to bring it up to the right height .
Can I start a rumour and say this block came out of a Lancia LC2 ????
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Oh and Sean that pump mk e is using in his V12 . It has the pressure side built into it as well ?? I have seen a few on Fleabay at reasonable prices ( under a $1000 )

 

Talking about the 360 pump and adaptors . The one issue with trying to fit the 360 motor onto a 308 box is I need to move that pump to the same position the drysump pump is in . It in the way of the gearbox were it is now . They moved it to the side to get the engine lower in the chassis . Hopefully I can just rotate it and use the same chain , but it may be to long ??
When my " std " motor is done I'll pay it some attention .

 

wow that block is definitely unique ... thanks for sharing that.

 

I forgot the diff is going to be in the way back there ... sounds like you've got a plan.

I got some itteration of the new Chevy block that has a dry sump from the factory for which I laid out adapters to use the 308 gearbox ... I just can't bring myself to spend more on a Chevy donor lump than I spend for a core 308 motor ... and I just got told I could have a complete 348 drive train (engine and tranny) for $5k ... I'm having trouble saying no to that one.

cheers

 

Anybody else been inside a drysump motor ?? Is there a windage tray ?? ( before I get to much further !! )

 

no

 

Dave,

Can you tell me how many teeth are on the 360 pump sprocket? I might have to man up and make sprockets from scratch for what I've got going on but thought the 360 part might work.

Also, can you tell how much speed reduction the 360 pump has? ... drive sprocket tooth count and driven sprocket tooth count?

You've probably sealed up the bottom end now but also curious what the reduction was on the stock dry 308 dry sump setup also.

Thanks,

Sean

 

Can't remember if Mark kept the 360 pump sprocket or not ! I'll have a look through all the 360 bits tomorrow . Sorry the 308 stuff is all closed up , we may be able to work it out from the pic's I'll have a look at what I have .
I was read an article about the 308 drysump and one thing they mensioned was that the 308 pressure side pump runs at 90% crank speed . It moves large volumes of oil . I think they said the scavenge side ran at 50% crank speed . The article was written by Bill Pond ??? I think . I'll try and find it .
Here are some more pic's
Motor all closed up
I borrowed the cam bearing reamer from my local Ferrari agents , bolted the heads I'm going to use to a spare block . Torqued them up using an old set of gaskits and reamed the journals . They needed it ???
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No windage tray on a 911 (dry sump). The "sump" is so small and deep (relatively speaking) that it's about impossible for the oil pick up to suck air.

 

Here's a pic I downloaded in the past (I think it's one of Dave's)
The 308 pump sprocket has 22 teeth. No pics of the crank sprocket though.

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Thanks Reed ... I know how many teeth are on the 308 crank sprocket ... I'll post that ... I'm very curious if the 360 has more reduction 'cause at higher rpm it's my understanding the pumps loose efficiency.

I put a 25 tooth sprocket on my 308 dry sump setup but I don't have the warm fuzzies about the material so I think I need to make one from scratch ... the sprocket I have might be fine for initial test stand runs though but also thought a 360 sprocket might do the trick.

Cliffbeer the "windage tray" we're referring to is the one that "manages the air/oil around the crankshaft" ... nothing to do with managing the oil around the pick up tubes. Since there are all kinds of "tricks" for controlling the aero of the crank I would think this tray would be some kind of benefit whether or not the motor is a dry sump.

cheers

 

That's a nice tool to be able to borrow .

I'm in touch fairly often with Mke about various topics so I can ask him about that.

There's no way the factory scavenge is 50% reduction from just the sprocket count ... I'll check the numbers on the pressure side but from memory I thought it was about 75-80%.

cheers

 

Look what I found !!! This is 360 stuff all taken by Mark when he was disassembling to get his rods
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And from this thread , best I can do on the front sprocket 308
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wow ... very little speed reduction ... I wonder if that's just a packaging issue. EVERY pump guy I've spoken to has reccomended getting the speed of the pump down especially on a higher rpm motors ... I hope to see 10k on some of my motors .... even if it is only for a few seconds .

Thanks!!! ... tooth count would be nice if they are right in front of you.

cheers