September 8: Ferrari Goes Before WMSC

Another good point.

In fact the "Ferrari International Assistance" has often tried to keep Ferrari in the running.

The only problem here is that they don't want to look like a rubber stamping push-over lapdog of LdM. But by putting the meeting/decision so far out, they're obviously hoping that the storm will have blown over by then. And hopefully it will have.

 

Again (heck I've said this about 100 times now) ALL teams want to ultimately win the WDC because that is the cherry.

They only want to do well in the WCC because that defines how much money Bernie hands out from TV rights, etc.

To win at F1 you need to win the WDC. Remember Ferrari won the WCC in 1982 but they considered that they had not won for 21 years and that goes back to 1979 ... thus AGAIN Formula One teams want to have one of their drivers win the WDC. That is what they are really racing for.

Thus when you penalise a team they should take away drivers points, otherwise it's only a $'s thing ... and Ferrari (and all top teams) have effectively endless supply of $'s so don't care.
Pete

 

Well by saying that you're at least asserting that F1 is in fact a team sport.

 

Agree, but the point I am really trying to make is that every game/sport has rules and you have to abide by them of face the consequences.

The consequence of cheating should be loss of drivers WDC points not a fine and not WCC as they both don't matter.

Just like in soccer, if you hand the ball you pay the price, Ferrari very deliberately cheated thus if they don't loose WDC points I will feel that the FIA is completely useless again. I am sure in soccer there are players that feel the hand ball rules are stupid, but deliberately handing the ball will not get them a different punishment because they were making a statement.
Pete

 

The problem is that teams have been breaking the no team orders rule for years and FIA did not care. We can´t blame them, as there was not real, incontrovertable evidence. Even in Germany everybody could see what happened but nobody told Massa to let Alonso pass explicitly. They could argue that there was an agreement between the drivers, and that´s still not forbidden.

This rule is not enforceable, was stupid from the beginning, and as long as it´s not eliminated it will bring new controversy.

 

The punishment must fit the crime and since the ban on team orders is so widely (if not so blatantly) ignored Ferrari has been punished severely enough already.
More important is to fix the rule. Either give apply it universally (impossible) or rescind it.

 

Ferrari and Alonso have shown contempt for the rules on more than one occasion this season and Alonso going off on the FIA about the manipulated result has not been forgotten.

The FIA will look at the body of work when they decide the punishment.

 

Unless they punish the specific offence they will just perpetuate the inequity and add to their illegitimacy.

 

I understand what you are saying but when one team constantly thumbs their nose at the rules there will be the straw that breaks the camels back. I think the German GP may have been that straw.

We will have to talk about this in circles for the next month

 

What else is there?
Under Max the FIA became a joke. They now have to not only be fair but appear to be as well. This one reason that unfair and uneforceable rules must go.

 

What is unfair about considering prior offenses when deciding the punishment? It is done on a daily basis in every criminal court that I have ever heard off.

Don't do the crime if you can't...

 

When the hearing is about a specific offense its unfair and illegal to bring in what are known as prior bad acts. If they want to prosecute for earlier offenses let them but do it openly.

 

I should start by mentioning that i am not a lawyer but i have seen a lot of "Law & Order"

I was referring to just the penalty phase not on the determining if they are guilty or innocent of violating the rule against team orders.

It is obvious to anyone that has been paying any attention this season that Ferrari and Alonso seem to think they are above the rules.

 

I don't know the rules of evidence that the FIA uses but under US laws prior bad acts can't be introduced at trial.
No matter what the FIA procedure is after the debacle of the Max Mosley years they have to be completely transparent and fair to regain their legitimacy.
Until all involved have faith that the rules are legitimate and will be administered fairly teams won't respect them and will continue to game the system.
I think Ferrari did the sport a favor by bringing this to public attention. Not that it was their primary intention.

Why should it be OK in the penalty phase? Unproven violations can't be considered.

 

See my post above that I was just referring to the penalty phase.

Unproven violations? You mean like Alonso passing Kubica by shortcutting the chicane and not giving it back and then Ferrari trying to throw CW under the bus in the press? Or Alonso's tirade about a FIA manipulated result? I could keep going but I think that any more would be pilling on...

 

Unproven as yet in a legitimate court.
I don't get why you think its preferable to continue the FIA's back room style than to operate in a professional manner. If there are violations adjudicate them and punish them openly. We've seen what happens when the FIA operates like a Kangaroo court and no one wants a return to those days.

 

I don't think anyone disputes the two things I mentioned. These are not crimes so they will not go to a court of law. The FIA is the authority here and I think we need to give the new regime the benefit of the doubt. They did do some very questionable things under Mad Max but he is gone now.

Do you think we can keep talking about this for the next five weeks? I hope not, I am tired of it already.

 

Ah you're weakening. My nefarious plan is working );
There is an established procedure to adjudicate these matters and your unwillingness to trust it makes me think you have doubts about making your case in a fair and open manner.

 

I think we all know some people will be happy and others will not not matter what the outcome is.

 

I'll be happy with any outcome if the process is open and honest.

 

How will we know that is was open and honest?

 

Bingo!
First it has to appear honest. If the case is not convincingly made and publicized people will be suspicious. If the punishment seems too Draconian or too light people will be suspicious.
Its not an easy thing to get right but generally one knows when the system is being manipulated.

 

I hope it will be, it's Todts first year and he appears to be distancing himself from the Mosley style of governing the sport.

 

I think the case has been made and publicized in the court of public opinion so that bar is very low indeed.

Now it is just down to the punishment.

What do you think would be fair? It must deter others or it is pointless.

 

Yes, as the race in Germany, should have been. A process, open and honest. It was not.