How did the "Team Orders" at the German GP benefit Scuderia Ferrari? Scuderia Ferrari would have had the exact same WCC points if they had not manipulated the result. If anything the "Team Orders" that could not benefit the team have in fact harmed Scuderia Ferrari immensely as everyone seems to agree that Scuderia Ferrari should at the minimum forfeit their WCC points from the German GP. There seems to be a shortage of deep thinkers at Scuderia Ferrari these days
Many commentators have made the assumption that what they saw was the result of an obvious transgression. But until we know why Massa did what he did, we can't make a call on it.
Scuderia Ferrari were fined the maximum penalty of $100K by the stewards of the race and referred to the WMSC for further action. Lets not kid ourselves
I pray you never sit on one of my juries. If it were you in the dock might you not want a higher standard of evidence?
The stewards of the race meeting rendered their verdict the day of the the German GP. I am just the messenger
Then you aren't agreeing with their decision? With their standards? You seem to be holding them up as some sort of paragon.
Yes I am but that is beside the point. The stewards of the race are the authority during the race weekend. You seem to be suggesting they are incompetent or worse. Every sport needs to have an authority that decides if the rules are being followed and punishes those who stray. Seeing that you seem to be in the legal profession I would have thought you would understand this better than most
Mention Mosley and you get a good thread, nearly as good as a Hamilton bash one... I think it is unfair to bash the FIA at this point, they are dealing with remnants of dictator Mosley old rules.
The fact that a penalty was assessed is not convincing. I think we've seen in the past that there's a difference between what the stewards choose to penalise and what is worthy of a penalty. There needs to be evidence of an order from the team either prior to, or during the race: something authoritative. An emphatically worded 'fact' from an engineer is not a command or an authoritative directive to switch positions. If Smedley's words were a coded message, then they would only be triggering a command given prior to the race. There's no rule stopping Massa from letting people past, and right now that possibility still exists. Evidence to the contrary would include a team member recounting a past discussion or something in writing. Barring that, Massa's testimony is the only thing to go on. In the end, the FIA/WMSC will make a decision based on what they 'think' happened, and not based on what acutally happened.
Here is some info I found on the stewards http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8684/
Of course its not besides the point. It is the point. Every organized activity needs rules and standards. By extension they need an administrative authority. That authority has to have legitimacy. It gains legitimacy by acting in a fair, rational and predictable manner. The stewards, by employing an embarrassingly low standard, has failed in its responsibility. I understand quite well how things work. I do reserve the right to point when the Emperor goes out pantless however.
In what way does any of that guarantee a fair outcome? The FIA is a nest of patronage hacks and the local clubs are of varying competencies. Besides that what good is it if they correctly adjudicate foolish rules?
What do you think a reasonable standard would be in this case? Did Massa or Alonso need to crack under cross by the reporter in the press conference? How about Domincelli would he need to crack when Eddie Jordan was interviewing him after the race? Would the Stewards need to find the secret Ferrari driver message code book and matchup the codes to the pass on Massa? What would you say is fair?
I read that in Brazil Massa has allegedly lost a lot of fans and support in the media: Because he let Alonso go by he is now seen as a softy with no balls, even as a traitor. Can anybody from Brazil confirm or deny this report? Personally I find that over the top and harsh. As I said before: It must have been really hard for Massa to give up that victory and I applaud and thank him for doing it. A true team player.
PK's telemetry apparently wasn't checked at the time : so given the clear, yet IMO Mosley and most of the pit lane knew what had gone down., 6 months later Flav starts spouting off about the rules and Mosleys ways and suddenly NPJ spills the beans. So I want this sort of thing stamped out, and if Todt is going to do that all well and good. Recap: Piquet’s race engineer gives him the hurry-up: “Nelson, no excuses now, you’ve got to get past Barrichello. You’ve got four clicks straight-line advantage. Come on, you’ve got to push now, you must get past him.” Moments later Piquet crashes at turn 17, where there are no cranes to lift the wreckage, making a safety car inevitable, and at the point at which he alleges Symonds told him to do the deed during a meeting before the race. Multiple voices: “Nelson’s off. F***ing hell. Nelson’s had a crash. I would say that would be a red flag. It’s huge [all speaking at the same time] . Piquet: “Sorry guys. I had a little outing.” Engineer: “Is he all right, Is he all right?” Symonds: “Ask him if he’s all right.” Engineer: “Are you OK? Are you OK?” Engineer: “Fernando’s just gone past it.” Engineer: “OK, yellow flag.” Piquet: “Yeah, I hit my head in the back. I think I’m OK.” Engineer: “OK, understood.” Symonds: “Right [inaudible], stop him.” Engineer: “Safety car, safety car, safety car, safety car. Fernando, safety car, mixture three.” Coded message here is :you have got to push: translated : push yourself into a friggin wall!!.
First the rule banning team orders is unfair, unenforceable (in an equitable fashion) and is detrimental to the FIA's credibility, hence it can't be enforced or adjudicated fairly. I would ask for the same standard of evidence employed by the courts and tribunals in any first world democratic nation. Starting with a presumption of innocence would be a nice enhancement too.
This is not a criminal trial and to your second question the FIA is based in France Image Unavailable, Please Login
So jurisprudence is not a concern? Sorry but you're not making a persuasive case. The fact that the FIA is located in Paris has never had a positive effect on its probity. The fact that we are not discussing a criminal proceeding does not lower the bar (excuse the pun) when it comes to fairness.
