308 Good For Anything But Garage Art? | FerrariChat

308 Good For Anything But Garage Art?

Discussion in '308/328' started by chipkent, Aug 28, 2010.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I've been a 308 owner for a little over a year now. In that time, I've probably only put 100 miles on the car because of the constant mechanical problems I've had to deal with (blown head gasket, electrical, fuel injection, electrical, starter, electronic ignition, exhaust, old hoses, electrical, fluid leaks, electrical etc.). I do all of my own work on my cars. Of the 30 or so vintage cars I've owned, the Ferrari has been the most labor to deal with and has accumulated the least miles.

    Right now, my attitude towards the 308 is very bipolar. Half the time, I think the car is crap, and I want it away from me forever ASAP. The other half of the time, I think that I've fixed almost everything that could possibly go wrong on the car so I should just hang in there a little longer until I get the kinks worked out.

    I need to make my mind up about keeping or selling this car before it drives me insane. Does anyone trust their 308 enough to put in regular drives, or does your car end up only being a nice decoration for your garage?
     
  2. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

    Nov 17, 2003
    4,209
    Austin, TX USA
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Once you correct the age-related issues, the car will love you back as much as you love it.
    Have faith, be patient, persist in fixing the issues. Any old machine will need servicing to bring it current. My 77 GTB runs great, because I've freshened everything I can on it!

    My .02
    Greg
     
  3. Raricar

    Raricar Karting

    Jun 17, 2010
    246
    Greenwood Village CO
    Full Name:
    Bill M
    Mine has given me some issues, and I do my own work too, often from untying knots others have tightened. But mostly trouble free. Got rid of the 4 sets of points, problem who's got that much time? Carb sorting sync, brakes that just didnt work, new pads seals lines. A few gaskets, and a clutch. But in 14 years its been more fun than fix. But all my cars have been like that the 78 BMW 635csi euro has had a fair amount of down time, now in fact. My Alfa was a total rebuild. The Porsche was a rust bucket and rebuild. Austen Healey spent more time on blocks then rubber. But all have been worth it. Hang in there 308's are a blast to drive. Which 308 do you have?
     
  4. 11506apollo

    11506apollo F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 16, 2008
    2,699
    Tx Co Ca
    There are hundreds if not thousands of 3X8s out there running fine with basic maintenance.....think about it. This is a simple car...not sophisticated at all..simple systems...or maybe you bougth one of the worst examples with serious mechanical/electrical issues I have ever seen.
    Have you passed the $30k test yet? You either paid $30k for the car and it is ready to run fine...or you paid $15k and you still have to do $15k worth of R&R to make it reliable and safe. Like Greg said, you need to give it some (more) love ($). This room can certainly help you enjoy the car as a vehicle...not as a garage decor.
    Cheers.
     
  5. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I have one of the very last 308 GTSis, which includes a lot of 328 improvements to the engine.

    I still haven't hit the magical $30k. I figure with a new set of tires, column switch, and a few other items I should be rapidly approaching the mark.

    Many of the electrical problems are from clueless previous mechanics working on the car. One classic example was the relays. The mechanic had installed the relays in the American configuration even though my car is a Euro spec. I can only guess at how many of my problems resulted from that blunder.
     
  6. chipkent

    chipkent Karting

    Jul 16, 2009
    115
    I think there may be hundreds of 3x8s running fine, but I'm not convinced there are thousands. I see old 911s and 928s on the street all the time, but the only time I see a vintage Ferrari is at a car show. I think the majority of Ferraris sit almost their entire life. When the car doesn't move, it is easy to say that it works. I also think the car is super simple so it should just work.

    Maybe I should keep the car around as my winter project and see if these annoying problems are gone by spring.
     
  7. chas-3

    chas-3 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 28, 2009
    1,281
    Colorado
    Full Name:
    Chuck
    I have had my 1983 308 GTSi QV for nine years. Other than basic required maintenance I have had minimal additional work needed. I bought the car with 42K miles and just hit 60K miles, so need to do a major soon. I drive the car almost every weekend and like to get it out where the public can enjoy looking it over. I think once these cars are sorted they are very reliable and a joy to drive.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139216579&postcount=1534
     
  8. Jedi

    Jedi Moderator
    Moderator Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Mar 18, 2008
    32,270
    Seattle Area
    Full Name:
    Dave
    From what you've said, perhaps a Ferrari is just not for you. I found that my own 328 just
    gets better the more I drive it - as far as I'm concerned, it's now like a new car, but
    with 70k miles on the clock. I drive it every chance I get. And I see quite a few
    3x8s out on the roads - at least around here anyway.

    Maybe move the 308 on and find something else that better suits you for other
    reasons. Ferraris really aren't everyone's cup of tea - totally understandable to me.

    :)

    Jedi
     
  9. don_xvi

    don_xvi F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,934
    Outside Detroit
    Full Name:
    Don the 16th
    I disagree with the above, it's good that you've kept up with it.
    It seems like you've got a troublesome example, I bought one of those dreaded garage queens with 30,000 on the odometer and haven't had as much trouble as you list. And it's a carb car.
    Eventually, the car will get all of the parts replaced that it needs, will the process be completed by you or by the guy that buys the car with a long list of recent repairs?

    I suspect you are frustrated, but get a good drive or two on a nice day like Detroit has today, and you'll be excited.
     
  10. CliffBeer

    CliffBeer Formula 3

    Apr 3, 2005
    2,198
    Seattle, Washington
    Full Name:
    Cliff
    #10 CliffBeer, Aug 28, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2010
    I have to disagree with those that say a 308 is a simple car, just like any other car, etc. It's not. It's actually quite a complicated car, particularly the engine and transaxle. A 1968 Mustang with a 302 is a simple car. A Citroen 2CV is a simple car. An MGB is a simple car. A 308 is infinitely more complex.

    Related, a lot of 308s suffer from extremely deferred (or completely absent) maintenance because of the cost of parts and qualified mechanics. So, it's not unusual to buy a 308 and find out it has a long, long list of defects that may not be readily apparent. Unfortunately, there's also a LOT of "kluge" fixes on 308s because the owner has neither the finances to pay a qualified mechanic, nor the DIY skills to do the job right (but they go ahead anyway).

    So, you're not alone there - many a new 308 owner has found out they have a long and expensive list of fixes ahead of them. If your skills are good however, you can gradually and carefully work through all the issues and end up with a nice, and reliable, car. But, that can be a very long road.

    Hang in there - one day you might just be able to get some miles on her and find out you have a real gem of a driving car there!
     
  11. shashi27

    shashi27 Formula Junior

    Jan 7, 2006
    988
    Long Valley, NJ
    Full Name:
    Shashi
    I have had my car for about three months now and put about 550 miles on her. I put about 100 miles on her today. I think she is fantastic and I am slowly working my way towards really learning her limits by pushing a little more each time. Honestly I think it is a shame that people with these cars that have them in pretty good shape don't drive them more. I don't know about the early carb cars handling as much but I assume yours must be pretty close to a QV. If you didn't have a PPI done when you bought the car maybe you should have one done now to see if there is more lurking. To answer your question the car is worth the effort. I say hang in there. You will be happy you did.
     
  12. db6

    db6 Formula Junior

    Jan 4, 2010
    253
    I'd call a 308 a relatively simple car. It's not "1960 VW Bug simple," but it's not any more mechanically complicated than most BMWs, Porsches, etc. of the era.

    Yes, the transaxle is laid out a little different than most. But for the most common maintenance things, like changing a clutch, it's easier than a standard layout. The engine is just a basic DOHC belt driven engine. The fuel is delivered by either carbs or CIS injection, a system used on literally millions of cars.

    Braking system - completely standard, simple stuff.

    Electrical. Standard, although it is simpler than most in that there is no on board computer, minimal electronics on the car.

    Steering. Standard.

    Cooling. Standard radiator, water pump, etc.

    A car is a bunch of subsystems put together, I don't see system on a 308 that is appreciably more complicated than most other cars.

    I think these cars have a lot of problems not because of any inherent super complexity, but primarly because of the way they have been treated. As stated above, many, many have sat for prolonged periods of time. Many have had a lot of deferred maintenance. This is because of the "Ferrari Tax" which causes even basic maintenance to be very costly when done by a shop.

    So you have a ton of these cars that are nice and shiny on the outside, but really mechanically neglected underneath. This is a little unique to Ferraris, in that most other cars (porsches, etc.) are driven at least semi-daily. When an owner uses a car regularly, there is a certain amt of upkeep/maintenance necessary. When a car sits for the better part of a decade(s), with only the absolute minimum done to keep the car semi-mobile, a lot of things start to deteriorate. When the car is put into normal use, those things can start to fail rapidly.

    I've had many of the 80s Ferraris over the past 15 years, they have ALL been exceptionally economical to run. The key, IMO, is to be very careful in buying a great example that has been used at least somewhat regularly and kept in fully operational condition. Also, as far as being reasonable to run, it helps a lot to be able to work on them. If I couldn't work on them myself and had to hand it to a shop for every bit of work or maintenance, I'd never, ever buy an 80s Ferrari. Just not worth it, given the crazy labor costs and retail parts costs.
     
  13. 11506apollo

    11506apollo F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 16, 2008
    2,699
    Tx Co Ca
    It's all relative. I think of a 308 as a simple car, in relative terms.
    Between simple and complex...she is simple.
    Between simple, medium and complex...she is medium.
    A Volvo P1800 or a Fiat 600 are simple cars......my M3 is a complex car.
    The 308 cannot be called a complex car...not a chance.
    Cheers.
     
  14. viper_driver

    viper_driver Formula Junior

    Jan 1, 2009
    978
    Vegas
    Full Name:
    Jason
    If you can sell and not immediately want another one, you should sell. Sounds like you'd be happy with something else.
     
  15. ClydeM

    ClydeM F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2003
    11,859
    Wayne, NJ
    Full Name:
    Clyde E. McMurdy
    Sounds like you didn't buy a great example. That happens.
    It takes $$$ and time to make it right.
    Today I drove mine 2.5 hours out to a car gathering and 2.5 hours back.
    And After the initial start-up, I was confident she'd make the trip no problems.
    and she did.
    It takes time to sort her out & gain confidence.
     
  16. gil308

    gil308 Formula 3

    Jun 22, 2004
    1,975
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Gil
    Unfortunately, I don't drive my 308 as often as I should or want to...but I keep up with the maintenance so I can. With the exception of a cooling issue right about the one year mark of ownership (which took a lot of time and money to finally fix -- and a great mechanic), she has been a pleasure to drive. I only put a few miles on her each drive, but enjoy every one. Even when it was costing me a lot of money to straighten out, not once did I say "I gotta get rid of this car" -- as I did with a Porsche.

    Difference is, I don't do any of my own maintenance...a Mustang, MG, VW, etc. are all very complex to me :) So for me, there isn't the frustration of having to personally fix everything...just the frustration of having to run that credit card through the machine again ;)
     
  17. stev4266

    stev4266 Karting

    Mar 24, 2010
    186
    R.I.
    Full Name:
    steven gregson
    I went through some things when I first bought mine. I spent about 1,000 on pieces and parts and did my own labor. Now the car is very reliable. It has become my daily driver. If I don't need the car all day, I"ll take it for a spin around the block just to keep myself happy. Hang in there you must be close.
     
  18. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    36,405
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    I haven't had those kinds of problems. In fact I have done a lot of unintentional abuse to it and it still runs like a Honda AND it has 107,000 miles.

    I love mine
     
  19. shmark

    shmark F1 Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
    2,968
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Mark
    A 308 is a simple car. Spend some time with a Jag V12 or a Rolls and you'll know how simple it is. I mean it's either carbs or a CIS V8 and it's not even a unibody, c'mon. I've got a 928 sitting next to my 308 and I'll give you one guess which car is the more complex, not even close. And the 928 is OLDER than the 308!

    Best advice would be to sell it before you're too upside down, and then buy one that's sorted and running well, harsh but true. I've put 1500 miles on mine in two months and it just keeps getting better.
     
  20. Tony K

    Tony K Formula 3

    Jun 7, 2006
    1,778
    USA
    Full Name:
    Tony K.
    #20 Tony K, Aug 28, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2010
    For its era, a 308 is not a simple car. And I wouldn't flatter it with the word "sophisticated". I agree that it is complicated for its era.


    Some examples:

    - You have to raise the car, and remove a wheel and wheelwell to perform relatively simple services such as belt changes, and (IIRC) adding the gear oil.

    - It has an extra set of gears, riding on ball bearings inside the engine, to turn the timing belts.

    - It has two timing belts (928 has one . . .) . . . and two tensioners.

    - It has two distributor caps, two coils, two ignition modules, etc., whereas most V8 cars of the era have one.

    - There are four sets of points and eleventy-billion timing marks on a carbureted car. You have to remove a plate to see the timing marks.

    - The AC compressor is a pain in the butt to remove. The thick, heavy aluminum brackets and belt covers require several changes of socket/ratchet/extension/u-joint to remove. Not quick or simple like . . . a Porsche.

    - The alternator is a pain to reach. And you have to remove three heat shields to do anything with it.

    - It has two catalysts -- most cars of the era (V8) have one.

    - The body is complicated. It is a smudge of aluminum, fiberglass, steel, and filler from the factory. It traps water and rusts from car washing and driving in the rain.

    - The trunk (boot) floor is a lesson in complicated-ness; it is an Italian sandwich of steel, fiberglass, and insulation (and more steel on the sides) . . . and, of course, traps moisture.

    - The floor of the passenger compartment is a sandwich of aluminum and fiberglass.

    - It has two fuel tanks. Most cars have one. That, like everything else on this list, is just more "stuff" making up the car that most cars don't find necessary.

    - Even the throttle cable is complicated, with levers at both ends, and a rose joint at one end. Most cars just have a cable.

    - The battery, while well-located for performance reasons, is ridiculous to reach. You have to remove the windshield washer bottle, spare tire, and a metal plate just to reach it. Reaching it requires being tall, having long arms, and a good back (or denting the body work with your elbow).

    - It doesn't just have spark plugs and plug wires. It has extenders and little round booties, too. And four of the plugs/extenders/booties are hard to reach (without denting the roof with your elbows).

    - If water gets past those little booties, your 308 is likely to misfire. The distributor caps need to be covered, too.

    - You don't plug the wires into the distributor cap . . . you pierce them with fine brass screws.

    - It's easy for your neighborhood oil change experts to mistakenly drain the gear oil instead of the engine oil when doing an oil change. I think that has even been done a couple of times by erudite sophisticates of FerrariChat.

    - It requires a big oil filter with a special feature. It requires twice as much oil in a fill as most cars.

    - It is a mid-engined car. Hardly "simple" in any era, just by nature of being different from 99% of cars on the road.

    - It has an oil cooler. Many cars today don't have them. Even more cars back then didn't have them.

    - It has four wheel independent suspension with coil-over dampers and four-wheel disc brakes. Very few cars from 1975-85 had such a suspension setup. Plenty of new cars still don't.

    - It has Bosch CIS fuel injection. In 1980-85, many cars still had carburetors. Many fuel injected offerings were less complicated "throttle body" fuel injection. Sure, CIS is simple compared to the electronic Bosch systems and GM's MPFI, etc., but if CIS is so simple, why can't anybody on this esteemed site make them go any faster?!? Seems to me plenty of people are still spooked by CIS, but not a set of four Webers . . .

    - . . . speaking of four Webers . . . THAT'S COMPLICATED. Most cars of the 308's era had ONE carburetor.

    - And on injected cars, the whole high idle/warmup system is . . . complicated.


    Nearly everything on the list above is uncommon on cars of the 308's era, much of it never became common, and all of it adds more work and more opportunity for error, especially among the uninitiated. Everything on this list is more "stuff" making up the car that most other cars didn't find necessary. That's not simple, and that's not sophisticated; it's just complicated. 308s use a lot of parts to accomplish things that most cars do in fewer parts . . . and many of these cars using fewer parts also require less reaching, contorting, raising of the vehicle, and removal of other parts in the way to accomplish the same service. Therefore the 308 is complicated, not simple.

    I'm not saying that any of the above is out of the reach of the DIY enthusiast -- that's obvious, and there are plenty of people here to prove that. And I'm not saying these are the most complicated cars of their era -- XJS (or 400i . . .) is a great example of a complicated nightmare. However, to call 308s simple aside from not being full of the electronic control of modern cars is just a bunch of talk. If these cars are simple, then no one should have any issue taking them to their local Midas or corner garage for service. If these cars were simple, we wouldn't have a forum full of people screaming PPI every time somebody wants to buy one. If these cars were simple, there wouldn't be so many mechanically neglected examples out there.
     
  21. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 4, 2001
    36,405
    Birmingham, AL
    Full Name:
    Tommy
    I am actually in the market for a 928 right now.
     
  22. shmark

    shmark F1 Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
    2,968
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    Mark
    I am actually considering selling mine. :) pm sent.
     
  23. etip

    etip Formula 3

    Apr 4, 2004
    2,406
    Washington State
    Full Name:
    Eric
    Yeah, but with all due respect, haven't you said you've spent $30,000 or so on top of the purchase price getting it running right??? ;-)

    These can be fun cars, but Ferrari's are among the most high maintanence cars out there. That said, if you've started working out the bugs, hang in there a bit. Do some of the winter projects that it takes to get it drivable without breaking down and enjoy it a bit. Then make your decision.
     
  24. lostbowl

    lostbowl Formula 3

    Apr 30, 2009
    1,246
    Michigan
    Full Name:
    Tom
    After two series III E-types the 308 has been a dream. I must qualify this statement by saying it took nearly a year ,after purchase, to get things right. Just in the last two weekends we have put in 2K mi. in 90F weather with no issues. Lost
     
  25. ClydeM

    ClydeM F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 4, 2003
    11,859
    Wayne, NJ
    Full Name:
    Clyde E. McMurdy
    BTW: Being an Italian mistress, I found that after painting the garage like an SF shield and painting two large Ramparte really helps her attitude :)
     

Share This Page