MOSLEY: Ferrari Should Lose Points

The race stewards imposed a $100K penalty for using team orders. Ferrari did not appeal the penalty. Does that not constitute an admission, or at least acceptance, of guilt? Doesn't that look bad if Ferrari later tries to claim they didn't use team orders in any sort of court?

Next - the stewards interviewed each Ferrari driver and a Ferrari official before declaring Ferrari guilty of using team orders and assigning a penalty. Ferrari was guilty of using team orders. Do you recall that each Ferrari driver testified to the race stewards that there were no team orders? Let's follow along - drivers testified no team orders. Stewards judged that Ferrari did use team orders. Therefore, the drivers lied to the race stewards. Right? Right.

Now, think back to Australia 2009. A driver lied to the race stewards in a post-race investigation. The driver was investigated, found guilty of lying to the stewards, and his penalty was to lose the points earned in that race. (Hamilton, lost 4th place, if you don't recall).

How is the case of Alonso and Massa lying to the race stewards any different? The excuse "the team told me to lie" doesn't hold water, that was Hamilton's excuse. Sorry, but there is a very direct precedent for the Ferrari drivers to lose their points from the German GP. Given that McLaren hadn't even broken any rules, just lied about how Trulli got ahead under yellow, and Ferrari's violation is worse.

 

Under Mosley and his show fixing take it down to the wire Hecklestone, penalties ect were handed out to even the score, unjust or not.

So in a case like this Mosley butting heads with Luca, Ferrari could expect the book thrown at them, but he might have taken in to account they made a hash of todays outing so it might have changed the fine from a big hammer blow to a smaller one, fact is you would never really know, how Ron Dennis is not a paranoid schizophrenic is beyond me.

But IMO the down fall of Mosley was taking on Ferrari.

 

We shall see if things have changed.
BTW looks like Patricko could use an intervention.

 

I am afraid it is too late for that

Also I have never hid the fact that I am a McLaren fan. My wife grew up in Woking, her father lives 2 miles from McLaren and my kids were born at the hospital down the road from the factory.

How is that for an admission?

 

Not necessarily. I don't understand the steward's penalty process enough to argue, but you could look at it as the team just accepting this at that point, but later having a different opinion. In murder cases confessions can be recanted after the fact.

Actually I don't recall the drivers making those statements. Not that I don't believe you, but I simply didn't hear that. If they did make those claims, well then that just goes to show what I said earlier: The FIA will have a hell of a hard time prooving that team orders were used:

The only proof would be a confession and according to what you heard, they basically said that was not the case. The mere fact that Ferrari accepted the fine doesn't necessarily mean they acknowledged team orders. It could be simply the equivalent of "No contest" in US civil court. Therefore your argument, that the drivers lied is not holding up.

As I said earlier it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Don't forget Ferrari is not McLaren. Just because a McLaren driver gets nailed for lying to the stewards doesn't mean the same applies to a Ferrari driver. And that's fine with me.

 

i apologize in advance if : this is not the best thread for these comments, OR is this has already been discussed in these terms.

But .. why couldn't *this* be a valid interpretation of the information given to Massa :

"Alonso is faster. Therefore, Felipe, you have a CHOICE :

1. Find some speed !!! ----or----
2. Don't defend the line TOO aggressively if Alonso attempts to pass ----or----
3. Allow Alonso to pass.

The choice is yours, Felipe. Whichever one you choose, is fine with the team. And we will praise whichever decision you make."

To me, the evidence allows for this to be a valid interpretation. Would this fall under the vague, ambiguous umbrella of "team orders" ???

 

You are absolutely correct. The words and the actions allow more than one interpretation. Short of a confession by the drivers the FIA is arguing on very thin ice based on ambiguous radio calls.

BTW: Welcome to Ferrarichat!

 

Your argument only holds if the process is fair and open. Not the traditional FIA way.
Already there are calls for Ferrari to be punished for unrelated issues.

Hold on P O the men in the white coats are on the way. They have a neat jacket for you. The arms tie in the back

 

Given all the various interests in this, how can this possibly be fair?

That's another reason why it would actually make sense for Ferrari to sue the FIA in a civil court because there a lot of the FIA's heavy hitters have no more bargaining power (as I said earlier, the case "Briatore" comes to mind).

 

Thank you, good sir! A pleasure to be here!

 

I'm certainly not sanguine about the outcome. It has taken so long for it to be adjudicated and so much has happened in the interim that its no longer about the specific issue.
If the FIA wants to be fair it will have to change some fundamentals.
If, as it seems, they want to continue acting autocratically they really should drop the pretense of fairness. Its just messing up things.

 

Don't worry, we'll change that quickly...

 

Oh yes.
Remember you promised me the next newbie.
I'll be more careful this time.

 

Quite the first post.
You'll feel quite at home here. Never enough trolls I say.

 

oh you missed his first and second, they were great .... reminded me of your little friend

 

The one on the other thread? If so it didn't go unnoticed.
Which Mosley loving little friend do you mean?
I have oh so many.

 

Indeed it did not.

 

How many more days until Ferrari is taken behind the woodshed?

I wonder if Max will personally administer the punishment?

This does seem to be dragging on forever.

 

Latest word I heard is that it will be a non event.

 

as it should be, what are they going to do, make FA and FM walk the plank ?

 

Last I heard whatever the WMSC do it will have no impact on the WCC or WDC winners this year

 

Sadly that's true.

Therein lies the ugly truth about (too) early team orders during the season: They rarely matter: Schumacher won that WDC with or without Zeltweg and Alonso will not win this year with or without Hockenheim.

I don't remember, but I'm sure somebody on here does: Were there any team orders in 2007? I remember that Massa said he would help Kimi, but did he actually get a chance to? Anybody?