360 Clutch/Angolar Speed Sensors

These are both Hall effect type senors.

The "angular" (please don't repeat the parts manual's typo ) sensor on the bell housing (item #28) detects rotational speed of the flywheel.

The "angular" sensor on the gearbox housing (item #40) detects rotational speed of either the input or the output (I can't recall which) shaft in the transmission.

By comparing the two angular velocities (i.e., how fast each is turning relative to the other), the F1 ECU makes determinations about how to modulate engagement / disengagement of the clutch actuator when shifting.

 

The standard 6-speed manual trans cars only have the one sensor (item 28) on the bell housing. While the engine ECU does use this sensor to pick up flywheel speed, it doesn't have anything to do with the operation of the manual clutch in your car ----- so, take it out and clean it up if you wish (won't hurt anything), but it won't have any effect on the operation / performance of your clutch.

 

1+

 

many thanks gents.

 

Ray, thanks for sharing the info! I have long been suspicious about all these 'clutch jobs.'
Lately I have been having the same symptoms of going into neutral on upshift. Mine was doing it any/all gears. Before that started I occassionally had a problem selecting 1st or reverse. No one on this forum seemed to have a definite diag. for that. It seemed to me the control unit did not allow the gear selections because it maybe didn't like the input-to-output shaft speed comparisons. I brought the car to a friend nearby that has an SD2. He read a 68% clutch. He also told me to replace the clutch to solve all these problems. Still in denial, I have yet to pull the gearbox. My experience with cars just won't allow me to believe that a clutch like mine, that does not slip under load, could be bad. I can understand that if it is slipping WHILE IN GEAR, then jumping into neutral, it may be a bad clutch, but this UPSHIFT/MISSED GEAR problem seems electronic to me. I was going to ask my friend to try and re-adapt the electronics, PIS, etc. or see if there is actually a stored DTC for some sensor. After reading your thread, I have pulled the both front sensors in the bell, found them dirty, cleaned and re-installed them. I did this before leaving my shop at the end of today. I did not have time to do the rear sensor. I drove all the way home (20 miles) without a problem!!! Maybe as already suggested, the sensors are cleaned while doing a clutch job and they are the actual problem all along?! We shall see...
I'll report back soon

 

Ray- Very valuable input. Certainly not highlighted in any other thread I have seen in FChat. Keep up the good work.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

the angular speed sensors are the ignition pickups on the bellhousing.they have nothing to do with the trans only the ignition system.thats why 6 speeds have them also.the sensor on the back of trans under air box is the speed sensor for the f-1 system.if this goes bad or gets debris on it it will only let you shift to 2nd gear.you could still have problems popping into neutral even if the clutch still has life left in it. if the t/o bearing is sticking and doesnt return quickly enough you could get a over pis code or clutch sensor code.either will cause it to go into neutral.you could just replace the t/o bearing seals and it would fix problem but labor is the same as replacing clutch so i would prob replace clutch also.

 

AIDAN ---

That is not entirely accurate as the F1 cars have (2) sensors on the bell housing --- one for the transmission ECU function and the other one for the ignition ECU function. The (manual) 6-speed cars only have the one for the ignition ECU function.

And, obviously, only the F1 cars have the sensor on the gearbox / transmission shaft.

All of these sensors are similar in that they are magnetic. So, debris contamination, especially carbon or metallic dust (clutch disc) and metal filings (gearbox) will affect their performance.

I have advised Ray that he very likely still has a mechanical clutch problem of some sort --- and, I agree with you that is most likely a bad t-out bearing, or perhaps even a hydraulic pressure issue somewhere in the system.

In suggesting that the sensors be cleaned, it was my intention for this to be more of a "WTF experiment" rather than a solution. And, since it is easy to do and "free" to DIY, I figured why not?

The interesting thing is that since the sensors have been cleaned, the car's shift performance is indeed much, much improved --- very near normal. I test drove the car before the sensors were cleaned, and it was miserable ---- popping into neutral very often and with random predictability.

At this point, I can't say definitively whether this was a "true fix" or a "simple coincidence". After all, it is only based on one isolated data point......Although, Mike's experience seems to be backing up Ray's result so far, as well .

Actually, I hope other F-chatters (who are experiencing similar F1 shift issues) will try cleaning their sensors too, and report back with their own results. When we have a good set of data points from several cars, we will know with more certainty whether this is (or) is not a fix in certain situations.

 

MIKE ---

I'm curious, do you recall what the PIS value was for your car's clutch when your friend ran the SD2 diagnostic?

 

David- I think you bring up another good point. When you change an F1 clutch, it is a false economy not to replace the T/O bearing as well.

Probably the clutch position sensor, too. At $400 for the sensor kit, what are the pro's opinions on replacing it on every clutch change, too?

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

6 speed car have 2 also one for the right bank ignition and one for the left bank ignition.they just dont have the speed sensor @ the rear of trans. i can guarantee that cleaning the sensors does not have anything to do with trans going into neutral.its just a coincidence.

 

My mistake. You are correct --- both cars DO have the (2) bell housing sensors. And they DO provide inputs to the engine ECU for ignition mapping purposes.

It was my understanding, however, that the signal from one of these sensors was also used by the F1 system for shifting information.

I certainly may be mistaken again on this point.....Is this not correct? I don't hold myself out to be an expert on the 360......

 

What are you using for a cleaning agent?

 

You forgot about the clutch position sensor #44-54 or #47

Lots of problems can be directly related to this and you can't get to it without pulling the gearbox.

The rare earth magnet rides with the slave cylinder.

Just replaced one found shattered and loose. The trans was going into neutral when up or downshifting after fully warmed up. Worked perfectly cold. PIS value and clutch wear values very odd though which pointed towards this sensor.

 

If I ever have to change my clutch, it will get a new OEM T/O bearing and clutch position sensor. Cleaning the sensors, especially the rear one, certainly cannot hurt, either, before changing a clutch.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Agreed.

If the bearing is good and smooth on the slave assembly, you can save a little money by cleaning and then replacing all the scraper/seal rings. Just have to make sure you get the F1 version vs stick version. The seals are made of different composition for Fluid compatiblity for ATF vs brake fluid.

We also recenter the shift actuator while the trans is out and other programming along with the normal stuff.

 

Well, I didn't actually forget about that sensor.... I just wanted to call attention to the sensors you can get to easily and without pulling the trans.

Really the only appropriate time to service that one is when you are already doing a complete clutch service. And, I concur with you that malfunctions with that sensor can really cause some "squirrely" F1 behavior.

 

I don't remember exactly what he said the values were because I'm not familiar with the SD2 and its readouts. I recall him saying 68% (don't know if that is remaining or worn value). Also some other value was 17mm?? Does that mean anything to you?

 

Also like to report that I have put over 300 miles on the car since cleaning the sensors and it is no longer jumping out of gear while shifting! I purposely waited this long to be sure it is fixed before reporting back. Coincidence? I don't think so... Thank you Akram! Very valuable thread! BTW how did you come up with this solution? Did you discuss it with someone or are you some kinda genius?!

 

Stop it!............it's a-n-g-U-l-a-r --- dammit

An a-n-g-O-l-a-r sensor might be a device used to detect certain indigenous people of south-central Africa! -------- LOL
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LOFFFFFFL

You are cleaning things and don't even know what they do??
OHHHHHH LOL. The internet is a fantastico place! LOL

Poor ( ) salt on it before you spray it next time, see what happens.
It will probably retain water LO L
Wait....one more thing........... LMAO

 

Edward- What is poor salt? Is there rich salt, as well?

182194 2 ANGOLAR SPEED SENSOR $ 143.00

Gee, wonder where he got that name? Direct from the parts book. The expanded description is: 182194 TRANSMISSION SPEED SENSOR.

Taz
Terry Phillips