How many BAD 355's out there?

<bowing down to guys like Dave and Gary and Tom Jones>

In the past I considered doing my own major, taking the entire winter, doing it "right". I am not a bad wrench, but I don't have a lifetime of experience to pick up on the subtle nuances that can be the difference between solid and very, very wrong.

Tom is putting the SR hoses on mine, Hill bearings, all the good stuff, and doing it with an eye that knows when it is right.

As these cars get older, it becomes more important: leave it to the guys who know it. Change your own oil. Swap brake pads and fluid. Fix your sticky switch panels. Recover your dash. But leave the engine service to the pros, and don't defer it.

I'm itchin' to get my car back! I am having withdrawal! Youtube videos are becoming like methadone to a heroine addict. Even after it near to ruins my life, it's still calling me ....

 

Yes, all induced failures.

I have so much time invested now in this car, I should have known better. Once I found the first bad clamp/hose, I should have just ripped them all out and started anew.

Dave, I love your posts.
Do you have to think about what you're going to write, or have you dealt with these issues so long that the right words just roll off your tongue without effort???

 

dave that was a great post. so do you recommend changes to the engine management system, or to run the car richer? will hyper flow cats cause the same problems as stock cats?

i am a recent owner of a 355 spider. very very cool car. just got today a capristo installed....oh man you haters are missing out on an unforgettable driving experience.

thanks
john

 

Is Dave Helms "The Man", or what? Thank you for being out there, Dave.

 

Few cars of the 355's vintage will be collectors' cars. They are "stuck in the middle", to borrow the classic business strategy catchphrase, between the hand built, low production, high quality sports cars of the 1950s/60s, and the very high performance plastic-and-electronics cars of today. As prices decline into the $40K range, even owners who can afford a $10K service bill will question whether it's worth it.

I would look for 355 prices to fall slowly and then stagnate for the next 20 years as they are used up and scrapped.

I tend to agree with Michael Sheehan on this one. Go ahead and drive them, because they still look good, sound great and are a lot of fun. Just don't waste your time charting price curves.

Good post.

 

These guys are going to be knee-deep in newer model Ferrari's if they don't mind paying $10-$15k for a service bill on a 355. As owners decide to not perform service that is required for some reason or another, these cars are going to be a dying breed and will lay in a dilapidated state until someone comes along and saves its life.......or not. This will ultimately lead to really nice 355s as a valuable commidity.

 

I think you're right that really well-kept 355s will be scarce. As to whether that will drive market values upward, I'm not convinced. Those large service bills are a real deterrent to those who would consider a 355 as a commodity with potential future price appreciation. You just can't make a case for the car as an investment.

It may be a lot like the 308 market, where really good original cars are rare, but they're only pursued by 308 enthusiasts.

In both cases, the best reason to own them is because they are good to drive.

 

I recommend Restoring the engine management to better than what it was when put on the car.

Fuel, in this case excessive amounts of fuel caused by the engine management not getting accurate data, makes an exceptional cutting fluid. Dump extra gas (if we could get it!) on the rings in a Nikosil bore and the rings will make short work out of the lining, its only about 5-6 Micron thick. "Extra Fuel" can come from the Engine Management, fuel not burned due to poor compression resulting from bad guides or liners and pistons trying to digest Ceramic Cat matrix, high back pressure from driving around with melted headers..... Not only will problems Not go away if ignored, they will compound and get Very expensive in very short order. The problems were ignored for many years and continue to be today. None of the repairs are inexpensive but once 'Properly' done, they are done for good. A cutting edge power plant has to be maintained at a cutting edge level, one cant pick and choose which problems they want to deal with... they all have to be addressed on a timely basis, ignore one and it will make another. Lean is where the power is, on the ragged edge of piston and valve melt down. On a properly tuned 355 engine a plugged piston oil cooling jet will result in a piston changing from square edges to rounded in short order. Before piston cooling was a trend we would set up a race engine for qualifying to run 1580 degree exhaust temps and tell the driver they had one hard lap to do their job. Mixtures would be reset to 1320 degree for a race so the damn lump would live an entire race. Today we are seeing temps in excess of 1400 degree being used on street engines and expecting them to live tens of thousands of miles with a potato in the tail pipe. As I stated before, everything has changed now, attention to the fine details is a must. Completely understanding this engine and its management systems took a long time, finding solutions to its problems took even longer. It can be argued that we in the business are partially to blame because it took us so long, the dynamics involved in this were really quite complicated! The problem being this market is too small to justify investing what it takes to design and build what is required, there are no returns on guesses.

Troy's Hyper Flow Cats have saved more Ferrari engines than anyone will ever know. Had they been OEM equipment I have firm reason to believe half of the problems we are dealing with today on this model would never have been a factor. If you don't have them, GET THEM, the amount of R&D he put into his product designs is incredible. Copies are just that, someone trying to make a sub std product look like the real thing. Troy single handedly made Having emissions equipment fashionable and in doing so solved a number of potential problems, good on him! Failures of his products have been discussed and fingers pointed at him on this site. His products fail because of what I discussed earlier, not because of a bad product. A converter at the end of the exhaust line has to deal with what it is fed and has no say in what it gets. Feed the engine the correct mixture, burn it properly as designed and the HF Cats will live a very long life, reduce back pressure and give the exhaust note we are all looking for... a terrific, must have package in my mind.

 

We have all been there, No good deed goes un punished. I would wager that 4 out of 5 times I try to do a quickie to help someone out it costs me money to do so and results in a failure in shorter time than was expected of it. The Triage procedure is a fine art!

It's all BS

 

Well stated. Only time will tell.

 

Maybe Saran Wrap and wire tie the offending hoses/clamps for a less costly and time consuming repair?

Actually I have it!! I have "Splash Zone" compound, a two part epoxy that was originally developed to repair boat hulls under the water line. We used to use that stuff to re-shape intake ports and inside the intake plenum on race engines. It'll harden like concrete under water -- why not just mold it around the hose connections!!!!!
Just like JB Weld, except for water leak solutions.
The next poor sole to service it would need a cut off saw and a jack hammer to get that stuff off.

 

thank you dave for the response. great info, well then it's a good thing that i have hyper flow cats on my 355. will have to look into the engine management. hopefully more people can understand the weaknesses of a 355 so these cars don't get bad reps as they age.

 

Ohhh boy, here we go....

Something like the "Where's Waldo" or the Hula Doll of Ferrari service procedures.....

I just have a feeling this one has legs. If you don't remember the Ferrari Hula Doll, do a search! Some of the old timers trying to pass off counterfeit's of the real thing.... the nerve.

I wonder if Flyboy has seen this on a Citation windshield being used as tear off's.

 

Your welcome. Its just one persons opinion, mine.

In this market, collect all the data you can on any subject and then process it all. At that point you can decide what has merit and what has much research left to do. I am a long way from done at this point.

 

but i bet you are much further along than most on the 355.

 

Dave what about Straight pipes, are they as good for the car?

Thanks,

 

They will make it sound like **** though....

 

I rarely get on here but I recently witnessed a disaster in the making on the tech thread... An individual poster basically said fooey with your gold connectors and claimed grease and saran wrap was adequate to protect electrical connectors.

I have a simple question:

Do some people log in and just get hit with a serious case of dumba$$?

For heaven sake...........What gives?


What scares the HELL outta me is the fact that these Ferraris are falling into the hands of people that need to be in the used domestic car market. I imagine many more will be trashed due to hillbilly repairs gone bad...Scary to say the least....


I think you should add a line item or two to your PPI list Dave


PPI INSPECTION CHECKLIST

39)Previous owner has a full set of teeth ___Yes ___No
40)Previous owner has hound dogs with full set of teeth ___Yes ___No


Wasn't there a welded header thread a while back, I watched that one......Jeeez....what the hell ever happened to that Weasel?

This forum continues to amaze me keep up the high levels of tolerance Dave (or Xanax, whatever does the trick)....See ya next year....

 

Some think so, some dont. Judging by how many of my own theories I have proven to be wrong over the years.... I wonder myself. Every time I prove myself wrong it just makes me search harder for the answers and leaves Niki and Kris shaking their heads.

There is a very small group of tech's in the US, some on this site, some not, who all debate topics like this. Problems this complex do not get solved by one person, it takes a number of minds that know this marque extremely well working together. We do not all agree on a single direction nor should we, that would be counter productive and would only explore one possible direction to head. Without this group I speak of we would still be at a stage of identifying problems, not working on solutions to those. Very few think this way these days, those that do have my highest respect.

 

Is the Engine Management version being used designed for an exhaust restriction (Cat) or a non restricted exhaust flow? They are not mapped the same. The systems can adjust to meet some changes but only within a rather narrow window.

It is my opinion that we will in time see emissions testing Nation Wide, one has to only follow the money to predict this. If the system was designed for a Cat, use one and allow the engine management to work as designed. Troy's Cats flow within a couple percentage points of a straight pipe and do not absorb sound. On a Ferrari in proper tune there is little to no downside to having them. The HF Cats will not fix ANY problems with the car, they just deal with what they are fed. Fix the car and then bolt them on.

 

Funniest thing I had ever seen.... that damn rodent sipping a brew. Just this weekend I got an email from CorvetteHangOut... I bet that bugger signed me up to a plastic car forum!

Havent tried the Xanax but if Kris reads this I could expect a Mickey slipped in my Diet Coke!

 

One of the main reasons I was thinking about is reducing the temp in the engine bay, Im not for a very loud car but the heat that darn 355 motor kicks off surprises me every time I check the oil.

 

Scary stuff and HIGHLY counter productive that heat is! All that oil in those cars isn't for slosh prevention..... the aluminum and oil get rid of a great deal of heat and along with the exhaust all ends up in the wrong places. Power is by definition, heat. Make more of one and get more of the other.

Try reading the HF Cat temps with an Infrared Pyrometer, cant do it.... that polish Troy put on isn't just for looks, it has a function. The heat radiated by the headers and muffler far exceeds that from HF Cats. That is one area I researched and developed what I think is a fix that shows a great deal of promise for these cars. I am working with (strike that, following direction from) Troy now a new design of his where this design will be tested at length.

Just when I thought I had a clue about exhaust systems...... what I know would fit in Troy's shirt pocket... we each have our specialty, exhaust through Cats is his.

 

Thanks Dave, So you are working on a new exhaust system for 355 - nice. I need to bite the bullet and get the cats and a new muffler to increase flow.

Thanks again -

 

Troy is working on a new design, I am just the Droid lending a hand with his effort on the 360 at this point. I have a 360 race car I am building where the owner wants it taken over the top, I saw this car and a customers 360 street car as the mule's to prove Troy's concept. Performance was realized by the owner of the street car on Troy's first attempt coming up on three years ago, fine tuning the sound is far more challenging. Believe it or not, the problem is making it loud enough, the darn thing was quieter than the OE muffler!

There are a few interesting exhaust designs at this point. I look forward to getting my hands on and installing one of Oz's designed systems. From our conversations a while back I was very intrigued with his thoughts and am sure it is cutting edge, everything I read so far bears that out. That is a system worth checking out.

My research and the designs we applied for patents on, regarding exhaust, are limited to retaining heat in the system itself. Heat retained affects exhaust flow speed, as soon as it cools, it slows down and needs to be pumped out. Retain the heat and the flow speed remains high. Radiated heat is heat lost and counter productive to intake temps and compartment components. Keep the exhaust flow hot and at high speed's while keeping the intake temps and engine bay cool, that is my area of focus. Doing either or both equates to efficiency and performance if we can make the components involved live a long life. There is so much work to do that we have to all keep a focus on our own areas of expertise, this market is too small and trying to do it all would break those involved. Troy knows Cats, Oz, Troy and others know mufflers (big difference between knowing mufflers and just making them), others know and are good at building headers....

I am stuck playing with heat shielding, the least romantic concept that makes everyone else's designs ugly.... talk about being stuck at the hind teat, first Hose, now this... big Wow!

Even if you stick with the OE muffler for the time being, get those ceramic Cats out and the HF's in, there are advantages to doing so.