308 Timing Bearings, Spring and Assemblies

Interesting. That would explain some things but not all. My source at SKF is thru an intermediary so .... that translation be also be a cause of muddy water from that angle.

My source at SKF told me that BA 28633340 B is NO longer being made BUT VKM 22380 still is. AS has been pointed out VKM 22380 is used for a fair number of other applications other than 3x8s.

Back to digging .........

 

Hi Mark,

this is logical, because they altered the design of VKM 22380 with a different bearing. You cannot give the same no. to a different bearing.
Maybe a silly comparison: But your engine is something like F105XXX, mine F106XXX. But both are Ferrari 308. ( o.k., forget the 'i'
VKM 22380 is still the whole tensioner pulley assembly, but because the bearing is now a variant with a single inner race, it of course wears a different bearing number.

And VKM 22380 was NEVER intended for use on Ferrari 3x8s by SKF. Third party mechanics have discovered, that this tensioner fits our cars.

In the bulletin I posted in one of my previous postings there are examples of the car manufacturers, who use this tensioner as OEM replacement.

And indeed there's a risk; VKM 22380 is used on Diesel engines with fairly low revs.
Noone can give a guarantee for that application in our engines.
Noone could SKF hold responsible for a failure of the VKM 22380 in Ferrari engines.
This is what they told ME. And this is what I would tell my customers as well, if they use my products on an application I have never checked.

But after all this is not our problem. I'm not really interested in details of the tensioner pulley internals, as long as I know, that it was manufactured by a reputable company.... like SKF, INA/*** ( Schaeffler Group ) or whatever.

Our problem is, that Ferrari sells OEM 'genuine Ferrari' tensioner pulleys without important markings, and therefore 'hide' the actual manufacturer. This is not trustworthy.
And the fact, that they sent a mass e-mail yesterday, where they swear on the quality of their parts - did you also get it ? - doesn't matter at all.

Best Regards

Martin

 

Martin,

More interesting stuff. Thanx !!!!!!

NO, I DID NOT get the email and I am a registered member of the Ferrari Owner's site.

 

I haven't received any email, and I'm also a registerd member of the Ferrari Owners site...

Martin is true about VKM. It's a SKF code that means Vehicle Kit Maintenance, and is used for a large amount of vehicles, like Peugeot Boxer or Fiat Ducato vans, with 2.8 Diesel Turbo engines. Is a really big mess... I will tell you more later...

 

Antonio; That e-Mail didn't come from Ferrari Spa. in Italy, but from Maranello Concessionaires ( Ferrari UK ) regarding the Classic Parts supply.

www.ferraripart.co.uk

Regarding the SKF VKM I wouldn't call it a mess. With a little bit of research all is clear. We have a tensioner pulley here, which was never intended for use on Ferrari engines. Some mechanics did some gambling some years ago and it worked.
Noone knows, whether the new design of the VKM 22380 evolution also works.
Some parts dealers still sell the new 22380 design without the slightest concern. Some of them don't even know, that there was a design change, because some private parts dealers aren't at all interested in technical details, but selling. I said SOME, no way all. So gambling starts again. Because the only thing SKF contributes to this subject is ' this tensioner is not for Ferrari engines '.
And private parts dealers, who are not an official SKF dealer, don't even get the important informations, like the bulletins.
Some folks still have to figure out, that there are a lot of people, who like the cars, like selling, but don't have any knowledges about mechanical and technical details.
I had an absolutely bad experience with a german Ferrari parts dealer this year regarding his lack of interest and stupidity and now would like to stick with Ferrari UK ( the source of all original Ferrari parts ) or Superformance ( private seller with experience and interest ).


Best Regards

Martin

 

Martin.
I'm also a Ferrari UK-Maranello Concessionaires customer; I've bought severals parts there, but no e-mail...

About the SKF BA2B 633340B bearings, I've bought them at Eurospares some months ago, and IMHO these have two inner races -see the second and third shots-.

A curiosity -see the first image-: we're discussing about the right/exact bearing that fit our Ferrari needs. After doing the bearings/timing belts change in my car, I've inspected the old bearings and... surprise! The used old ones were from the wrong model SKF 617546 A HT22... These ones have been fitted to my car almost seven years ago... And no problems at all -I'm a new owner; bought the car two years ago-. Food for the very experts...

Regards
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I can't clearly see the complete pulley, but it seems, that you had the original former and CORRECT Ferrari OEM tensioners in your car. This was the best - even though most expensive - solution.
Unfortunately the current Ferrari OEM tensioners are not of the same quality like the ones you had in your car.
The VKM 22380 with bearing no. BA2B 633340B is the second best solution and you should be glad, that Eurospares still had some of those with the double inner race design in stock.
From now on when stocks of old designed - double inner race - VKM 22380 are emptied I would say ' Hill Engineering PT 308 '.

Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

Sorry to be dense here guys.....just wondering if it's possible to distil the (very rich and detailed) data here down to what might be helpful to your average 308 DIY guy who is looking to replace the tensioner bearings in his 308. In other words, what is the preferred, and currently available, tensioner bearing assembly?

 

of course;

- old Ferrari OEM tensioner; the bearing marked 617546 A HT22 SKF Italy or France; see Rob's pictures in post #1 and Antonio's in post #31; no more available, the only option some years ago. Very expensive, but reliable at least in my case.
Because of the crazy price some folks searched for alternatives.

- SKF VKM 22380 with bearing SKF BA2B 633340B ( double inner race ); second best solution; no more available from SKF; some dealer may have residual stock.
Never intended by SKF for use on Ferrari engines.
Matches different OEM tensioners for slow running Diesel engines.

- SKF VKM 22380 new design with single inner race; noone has proved yet, that it works on Ferrari engines. For the rest see above ( VKM 22380 old design )

- new Ferrari OEM tensioner, marked 617546 A Italy, but WITHOUT SKF; see Rob's pictures in post #1; unidentified actual manufacturer.

- new Hill Engineering tensioner PT-308. Specifically designed for the Ferrari engines. Very good quality impression. The bearing itself comes from a japanese premium bearing manufacturer. Probably the best solution these days.

And finally; lots of cross references matching SKF VKM 22380 from different manufacturers. The low end with brands like for example Breda Lorett, Q&H, etc. with unknown original manufacturers. And on the other side, reputable manufacturers like INA/*** ( now Schaeffler Group ), who has 531 055 710.
This also fits our engines and is the only one of this bunch, I would dare to try.


Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

I have series 1 gt4 like Roberts and going through a belt change as well. I had to use a puller to remove and a press to replace. It must just be an older car thing because I didn't see this on birdman's or anybody elses instructions. These were the first 308's produced and there are bound to be little differences.

Robert, take the Hill engineering ones. I bought a set from Daniel and they will still need to be pressed on but it is the correct part and good quality.

Cheers,
Spencer

 

Interesting, and kind of weird. Because the parts no. 105202 of the corresponding part is the same with early and late cars.
Or are there unintentional italian tolerances ?

Best Regards

Martin

 

Ive done this 4 time and all mine had to be pressed on and puller of even the last inner race see photo.

 

Freinds,

Well this is where I personally and publicly thank Daniel at Ricambi. I got a box today with a FREE set of Hill high performance bearings!! These are very nice and I urge anyone thinking of changing their bearings to get a set of these from Ricambi. They are so nice I want to hang them on the wall. With the weight savings I am expecting at least 10 more HP! Daniel THANK YOU!!!!! I owe you one, this is like an Oprah segment where she gives out a car to the audience. I cant say I am the most deserving of your kindness but these came at a great time for me!!!!! Even the package is very cool!! Will post some pics of them mounted!!!!!
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I will be purchasing a set of those from Daniel first thing Monday morning.

 

Martin,

Obviously your research is MUCH further along than mine.

Got a question.

I have two SKF bearings, bought from an East Coast USA parts supplier will all the proper marking except one. They came in SKF boxes and each bearing was incased in a light blue see-thru sealed bag.

On the bearings, instead of the word "FRANCE" (location of manufacture) each just has the letters or abbreveation "FR." You can see the same thing in the first pic in Peter's Post #2 of this thread.

From your research, is that a "REAL" bearing in your opinion or NOT ????? I am not so sure.


mwr

 

Like I mentioned in that post, I bought these bearings from Dennis McCann (knowing full well that they were NOT the spec bearings for the 308. This info is disclosed in their website page for this part listing) and they both came in the same blue bags you mentioned. I did not notice the country of origin identification (or I may have and not given it much consideration), but it would make sense that "FR" would mean "FRANCE"...

I understand the quality concerns mentioned in this thread with these "aftermarket" VKM 22380 bearings, but what I can say is that they are vastly better quality than the junk I bought from Superformance back in 2001 (and yet even with those, I got eight years out of them, until I replaced them with these, VKM's last year).

 

Very nice Robert (and Daniel)! The Hill bearings certainly look good and no doubt are a finely engineered replacement. My next set of bearings will be Hill bearings from Daniel/Ricambi....

 

Peter,

NOT poking at YOU at all. Nor at Dennis M. I get a LOT of my part requirements from him and WILL CONTINUE to do so. Great folk.

I am just a might concerned as I have NEVER seen before or after "REAL" SKF bearings with "FR" on them and NOT "FRANCE."

Even the best can get "Faked out" once in a while.




FWIW, I did NOT get mine from Dennis or Daniel or Ted.

 

Mark,
I have to admit, I have also never seen FR instead of France. But I don't think, that this is a sign of a fake.
Reason; those fakers try to copy the original product as exactly as they can.
So they would mark a counterfeit bearing with 'France' for sure.
And I cannot imagine, that the fakers would also copy that typical blue bag.

Since even the original manufacturer is no more able to tell with the naked eye, there's only one advice to avoid any concerns:
Purchase the bearings from an official supplier like I do.
Since you are in Germany, for example 'TROST', which you find everywhere in Germany.
TROST is an official SKF supplier of their automotive parts.
The VKM tensioners are an 'Automotive Part'. This is a different department at SKF than 'Industrial Bearings' with different official vendors.

Best Regards

Martin

 

Martin,

Thanx.

Yep, I have TROST here in Weiden. Will see them today or tomorrow.

mwr.

 

I did not consider your comments as criticism. I just thought to emphasize to people in general who may read this thread, what I had and how I purchased them. I deal with Dennis McCann nearly on an exclusive basis and have purchased many of their "aftermarket" parts they sell and have been satisfied with their quality.

As for the tensioners I have, as you can see, one of them had "France" printed on them, the other had "FR". Both came in the same boxes, both in the same blue bags. When I get the chance, I kept the boxes (which are buried deep in other boxes in my messy garage) and will check them to see if they have batch numbers/date codes which could explain the FR/France discrepancy...

 

i don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but once you set the belt tension, you lock the bearings down and NOTHING moves in/out. It's supposed to stay where it is.

 

I sent this thread SKF and asked them for some clarification. I was also contacted by a knowledgeable ferrari guy (I wont go any farther) and he said the bearing I posted was junk (the ones from ferrari) and might fail and not to use it which i did not. I wonder how many of these are out there.

I love my new bearings they are so nice i dont want to mount them!!!

 

I'm extremely curious about their reply.

Best Regards from Germany

Martin

 

Robert,
Thanks for your inquiry but unfortunately our division can't answer your sourcing question. Ferrari is a life long customer and a development engineering resource to their manufacturing but product placement is strictly driven from Ferrari and before a change , many months of conversation take place and then any soucing change would not be taken light until many hours of validation was performed.

Our division would purchase the same product used on the Ferrari engine, from the division that controls the source with all decisions driven from Ferrari to supply to our customers. Any product offered to replace the OEM equipment would not be taken lightly as well. I briefly reviewed sales to determine if our division sells to this clientele and discovered no sales were generated for Ferrari applications in the 15 years we've tracked it.

I'm not sure of the source you choose to buy your bearing from but I would think it was a Ferrari dealership or an equally experienced garage. Those sources are not driven by SKF product, they can purchase any product from alternative sources other than SKF. Model updates or product alternatives are also driven by Ferrari. If Ferrari has made a change to a tensioner roller we would accommodate that change to customers but SKF would not or could not do it without approval from Ferrari to the best of my knowledge. However, there are hundreds of SKF bearing division globally, SKF US only "passes" the product through to the customer, it doesn't re-engineer or offer alternative product to the OEM part on vehicles of this type.

I do apologize but you can have your inquiry re-directed to SKF headquarters in Lansdale, Pennsylvania to pursue explanations to souring changes made by that or other divisions outside the US. You can also contact Ferrari directly to request information related to this issue as well.

Thanks,

Jim F. Lackowski II
Product Manager

SKF USA Inc.
Vehicle Service Market
890 N. State Street, Suite 200
Elgin, IL 60123
Tel: 224-535-4460 or 800-323-8024
[email protected] www.vsm.skf.com