The Ferrari part is a Bosch Part - stuck in a Ferrari box. with what - $700 markup? Example of Ferrari mark up. Britax Duo-Plus ISOFIX baby seat - around 179 pounds or $280 at todays exchange rate. Same seat, from Ferrari with nice lettering and pony - $2700. Really - seriously.
It's also worth noting that running a "sub-standard" MAF sensor ---- a cheaper aftermarket unit rather than the "glorious" Bosch OEM ---- is not going to "destroy" or "damage" a car's (even a Ferrari) engine. A lesser quality MAF sensor will simply not process the signals as precisely or as rapidly as the higher quality sensor. Most drivers will not be able to detect any difference whatsoever in the car's response or performance. In reality, the A/F ratio may not be controlled optimally in all running conditions, and you may experience mildly increased fuel consumption, but that's about it. If the "cheap-o" sensor were to be so lousy as to cause engine damage, the engine would be spitting up numerous trouble codes related to A/F ratio (lean or rich combustion), O2 sensor values, and temperature limits, etc. If you aren't getting any CEL's or codes, the engine is not in any risk of being damaged, period. If you do get codes, I would definitely yank the bargain sensors off the car, immediately.
David, Your comments are so far off base, it's scary. To be blunt - stick to what you know, because THIS isn't it.
FYI, I just took a look at the Ricambi website and noticed that there MAF is not Bosch. Sorry I did not pay attention at first but now the plot thickens. I blew up the Ricambi pics and compared them to my aftermarket MAF sensors and although they do not show the manufacturers stamps on the product, my aftermarket MAF looks more like Ricambi's then Bosch's. Anyway, what if the Ricambi part is the same as my $50.00 MAF??? Does anyone know who produces the Ricambi 360 MAF sensors?
I'll be happy to - I've been calibrating engine ecus for the aftermarket and the OEMS for the last 17 1/2 years. (The OEMs call me in when their people can't solve time-sensitive problems) I started multiple corporations that do just that. (You've likely either driven some of my work, watched it on TV, or read about it in the usual car mags) Shall I continue w/ my C.V.? - No, I'd then be accused by someone else of something else nefarious. It should be noted that I actually HAVE a standardized MAF flow bench, I could buy one of these "EBAY" MAF's and see if it matches the F360 unit - I still wouldn't put one on my car. Do you have any comprehension of WHY having precise mass air measurement is so important in a drive-by-wire system - like for example ME7.3.1H that's in that F360 (and also Alfas/etc)? Let's go over the system for a second. Here's a 50,000 foot altitude "executive overview". You press the pedal - the pedal has two sensors with differing slopes. Both have to agree and this forms PWG - Pedalwertgeber. Essentially the value of the "drivers wish". You want "A"% of the engines torque production. But how does the ECU know how much torque the engine is producing? It doesn't. (It's mapped - read along with me) After your request is sanity checked and coordinated by torque coordination where it can be overruled by things like brake application and inputs from the traction/stability control we get a final value.. let's just call it "Requested Torque". So how does the engine get to this "Requested Torque". Or in German - how do we get "IST" -> "SOLL". There are mapped tables used in function MDBAS MDBAS 4.30 Berechnung der Basisgr ¨oßen f ¨ ur Momentenschnittstelle or auf englisch MDBAS 4.30 Basic calculation for torque interface What are the axes of the more important of these tables.. Glad you asked, David. RPM and... Wait for it Wait for it. RELATIVE FILLING But how do we know what the Relative Filling is? It's a mathematical calculation based upon... RPM, Cylinder Count, Cylinder Volume and... MASS AIR FLOW So if your MAF Q value is "not correct" - you aren't just going to "lose a little mileage". Your fueling will be off until adaptation can correct it - assuming it's within the range of the lambda adaptation. Your transitional fueling will ALWAYS be incorrect. Your ignition timing will be off (again, tables indexed by Relative Filling) and you will either have retarded timing and increased EGT - or you'll have overly-advanced timing and be running on your knock sensors. I hope they respond quickly enough under all the new circumstances you have them dancing around! (You could be at 60% RF, but reading 50% or 70% - big differences) Your emissions output will be increased You can compromise the safety margins designed into your EGAS (Drive-by-wire) SYSTEM. It might think it's producing 200Nm of torque - but actually be producing 250Nm. If your stability control needs to intervene, this could be a big problem. (Worst result - bent metal and/or dead people) All this to save some bucks and buy a "destination unknown" MAF. FOR A FERRARI (I'm sorry readers - is it just me - or do you also find that owners of ANY highline automobile trying to be overly "frugal" in repairs is a bit - well - illogical, Captain) Why is buying from the OE/OEM important? Because they actually KNOW what the specifications are for that MAF. Neither Bosch nor Ferrari is going to just hand over those specs to "anyone". An example - one of the OEMs I've done work for - afforded me access to the OE<->OEM documents for a series of Bosch MAFS. We'll just take one in question... from a mid 90's turbo car from a German OEM. The specification for that MAF is 24 pages long of confidential information. It comprises: 1) Aero critera - including the pressure drop at specific Q's (mass flows) and the transfer curve 2) Electronic criteria - including supply voltage and current requirements as well as the minimum voltage allowable under use. 3) mechanical criteria - like acceleration and frequency of vibration allowed and my favorite - the precise allowed dimensions of the ducting on the free-air and engine sides of the MAF. Such minutiae as the radius of any bends/flares and the min. distance of the bends/flares from the MAF based on the radii of said bends/flares are included. Why? Because ACCURATE airmass measurement is THAT important. (It's even more important with our modern Drive-by-wire systems in the F360) BTW - I'm only on page 11 of 24 - there's lots more to go. I'll just skip it. Believe what you want, replacing a Bosch MAF with "Manufacturer X from EBAY" is a fools errand. It wouldn't be wise on a Yugo (Yeah, they actually used Bosch Motronic) and it's utter lunacy on a FERRARI where the engine costs more than a mid-level luxury car. You don't have to buy the Ferrari part - buy the BOSCH part - it will be cheaper. Take a look at your original (bad) MAF and get the BOSCH part # off of it. It will be something like this.. 0 28x xxx xxx Then just call a Bosch parts jobber and order it. Orrrr - use your head and find out WHICH other cars it's used in and order the same part say from HONDA Jim PS: Here are all the direct Bosch cross references for the F360 Oxygen Sensor 0 258 007 001 Injector Valve 0 280 155 869 Fuel Pump 0 580 313 052 Air Flow/Mass Sensor 0 280 218 012 Pressure Sensor 0 261 230 015 Control Unit 0 261 204 841 Coolant Temp. Sensor 0 281 002 170 Knock Sensor 0 261 231 145 Engine Speed Sensor 0 261 210 198 Canister Purge Valve 0 280 142 300 Accelerator Pedal Sensor 0 280 752 028 Throttle Chamber Assy' 0 280 750 038
Just a thought ... Jim isn't it true that the ECU can ensure no damage to the engine even with a very bad MAF? In the close loop domain, it should be able to compensate for an inacurate MAF thanks to the O2 sensors reading. Probably it can adjust by #20% in lean or reach side before switching on the CEL In the open loop (and close loop !), the consistency/sanity check between MAF, RPM and throttle opening shoud ensure that the measured air flow is not wrong by more than ??? % before going in limp mode. Are those safegards enough to protect the engine ... or to avoid an inexpected reaction of the car because of sudden torque surge?
Eric, It only adapts the fuel - the RF values will still be off. knock sensors will do their best with timing as well, but only if they can keep up. Jim ps: I can look up the actual limits of adaptation later, and post them - I'm on my ipad ATM and headed to a day of car shows
I dont know if we determined the European MAF I got is not accurate. Once again, the $50 MAF I bought might be the same $265 MAF that Ricambi is selling. Once again, does anyone know what brand of 360 MAF Ricambi is selling?
Put 198 miles on the car over the past 4 days. 60% in town and 40% on the highways. I got 14.3 Miles Per Gallon. No Check Engine Light, No codes, starts and runs smooth and cool. Now where do we go from here guys?
It's a good question on who is supplying Ricambi- Ricambi is quite reputable so I'd think they did some diligence... I wonder if the high level of heat in the engine compartment fries 360/430 MAFs sooner than in a "normal" car that doesn't have the main exhaust muffler and cats sitting so near in an area that gets hot during running and stays hot for a while after shut down (maybe even hotter for a bit when the car is turned off and air-circulation stops while the motor is still cooling)? Look at this website- scroll to Ferrari- it APPEARS they have the Bosch MAF for $101.37- it says Bosch, but I wonder if it is? Anyone heard of this website? http://www.autotekelectronics.com/newautotek/UK/public/results.php?all=&Manufacturer=&CatDescription=Airflow%20Meter&MakeDesc=&ModelDesc=&YearFrom=&EngineSize=&EngineCode=&PartNumber=&startlimit=100&endlimit=125
Found this inf on the MAF. Do not know if this means anything good or bad? http://ppfy710724.en.made-in-china.com/product/BeKmUxHYvJpX/China-Air-Flow-Meter-0280218012-.html
Nice find there --- very interesting info....thanks for posting it ! Of course, one must keep in mind that not everything coming out of China is crap, either ---- otherwise, they would not be the World's economic leader in manufacturing and consumer product exports today
Yes, I do --- and, I knew before I posted my comment. I'm well aware of Jim's expertise in engine management electronics. The interesting part is that HE has no idea who I am, and what I do.... Yet, he (and a few others) presume(s) to KNOW that I am NOT knowledgeable in this area ? So, being a reasonable person, and being the only one here who knows both Jim's background AND my own background..... I still stated the question.....pretty brash of me, huh ?! Perhaps that's because after one graduates from internal, hydrocarbon-only, combustion engine theory, they can move on to more complex phenomena such as )))) open combustion, multi-fuel combustion, compressible gas / fuel mixture management, compressible fluid flow dynamics, viscous fluid energy transformation, fully oxidized combustion systems, micro-gravity fuel combustion, cryogenic fluid mechanics, anaerobic combustion, etc.............. And, yes Jim, you are correct ---- I very likely HAVE ridden in automobiles that utilize some of your designs for engine management. And, you, my friend, very likely HAVE ridden in aircraft that utilize some of my designs and analysis --- You MAY even have heard of some spacecraft or launch vehicles (and their missions) that utilize(d) some of my designs as well
That's great David, and that gives you any expertise in Chinese-manufactured MAF's how? (Oh, that's right - it doesn't - any more than my expertise in cryptanalysis/cryptography gives me any further understanding of automotive airmass measurement - which is my nice way of saying I'll put my C.V. up against yours at any time in this arena) You want to put Chinese parts in your Ferrari, go for it. If you recommend it to others, you're going to lock horns with me every time. Engine electronics are simply not the place to try to "cheap out" on a Ferrari.
But unauthorized copies of things they don't have the original engineering on, are most certainly "crap". Bosch MAF's are one such thing. Their copies of my diagnostic tools are another such thing.
Its a shame that the other models that use the MAF are not US cars- MG, honda and rover diesels...unless someone knows another car that uses this part number? I was trying to see if some of the supply places I've used have the part listed for another car (since some don't have ferrari listed as a potential make- one of my favorite online places for my other cars is "autohaus az"- great prices, but no ferrari stuff http://www.autohausaz.com/ )... Still wondering if the website I posted is selling real bosch parts- I can't even determine where the seller is located- UK? I would only want to use Bosch parts- just that no one seems to have the MAF for the 360 excluding ferrari and their insane pricing : http://www.autotekelectronics.com/newautotek/UK/public/part.php?partid=13074&PartNumber=%200280218012&img=1
Andrew - one of the issues is that the other cars DO NOT use that Bosch Part # MAF. This is per Bosch's own cross reference information. Jim
