http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298668 if anyone has a suggestion on where to go next I would sure appreciate it. When I first tried to start the car a month ago, it did this exact same thing (caugh, spit gas, back fire). I finally figured out the ignition timing was off, got it set correctly and it started right up. Now it's doing the same thing. Both dizzy's are tight and do not move so I'm having trouble believing that the ignition timing is off again. Please read the linked thread and offer any suggestions. thanks
To check for spark: Get a spare plug and attach it to a spark plug lead and ground to engine. Get someone to crank the engine and see if plug fires. If it does not spark, get a spare spark plug wire and attach directly to coil. Ground plug and repeat test. If it sparks the problem is probably in distributor or lead to it. If your carbs are puking fuel, I would be leery of doing test.
If you have been doing major services like removing and replacing the cam belts, then you must go back and check and verify the mechanical timing of very elelment of the system, camshafts, belts, flywheel timing marks, dsitributor rotor, everything. When I have a timing issue, I take off the flywheel timing mark cover, take off the two cam covers (hateful task), take off the timing belt covers, and slowly, carefullly check for the proper timing of every element of the system, So, if the timing is off: a) it won't run and b) you might bend or break off valves if you crank the engine with a timing error. The amount of interference between the pistons and valves is amazing, a disaster waiting to happen. The mechanical timing of all the elements is the hardest part of doing any belt service, somehow my rear bank timing belt on the exhaust cam jumped two teeth while sitting static in the garge for a month, I was shocked and amazed to find the timing error, but it was real, and it caused a not too alarming but clearly audible clicking sound when I cranked the starter, took me about two days to fingure it out, but if I had run the engine like that it would have busted a valve for sure. Please reply if this sounds like preaching, and you just need some specific advice... Andy
Just a couple of quick thoughts. You need three things for the engine to run -- air, fuel and spark. Obviously, before you start messing with the timing, you should check and make sure your fuel pump is running, that fuel is getting to the carbs, and that the carbs are not overflowing and flooding the engine. Next, pull the plugs and make sure they are not fouled or "wet" from excess fuel coming from the carbs. If they are, you won't get a good spark. If so, clean them up and trace down the source of the excess fuel, which with carbs can often be misadjusted floats. Assuming the plugs looks good, carbs seem to be working properly and fuel pump running, you obviously need to check the spark. Easier and safer than pulling a plug and attaching to a lead, just use an inductive timing light. You can clip it around the individual leads, have someone crank the engine over, and see if you are actually getting spark to each plug. I like the timing light with the adjustment knob on the back so you can dial in the light to your timing mark and then read the timing setting from the light, not from the marks on the flywheel. Let us know what you come up with.
The firing of an inductive timing light is a necessary but not a sufficient condition that must exist before a spark plug can spark. So if you don't have such a light, as I said get a spare plug, even a lawnmower plug suffices, and attach it to the spark plug lead. The grounding can be completed using a battery jumper cable. You'll know instantly whether you have fire at the plug. The coil test requires a spare lead.
To answer a few questions; I have not set the timing. When I put everything back together, I double checked all the marks on the cams/flywheel and even did the screwdriver check to verify TDC. Set the tensioners, rolled everything over by hand, double checked, locked everything down. So the tensioners are set and everything is locked down. I suppose it's possible my car is related to Andy and something jumped (a friend also suggested this might have happened). Once I got all the mechnical stuff set, got the valve covers back on, I put the dizzy's back in. With the engine at PM1_4, I set the rear bank rotor at the red tick mark on the dizzy (roughly points to #1 as I recall). I then rolled the engine over to PM5_8 and did the same with the rear dizzy/rotor (screwed this up the first time which is why it would not start/run). Once I got that right, it fired right and actually idled pretty well. I did not have time to put on a timing light and set everything - still had stuff to put on the car. Fast Forward one month, now it won't start (see link in 1st post). As I said, I found a lose wire on the pertronix, tightened it and vroom, it started, but reluctantly. FF 3-days, not start at all. The pump is running and gas is flowing (can smell it in the carbs) I think the easiest things to do in order are; 1. Remove and clean plugs (took out rear 4 already, some carbon but not really wet). Take out remaining and clean. 2. Verify spark at each wire with timing light while someone cranks engine for me. 3. Verify the dizzy's are in the correct location (simply remove caps and roll over engine hand). 4. Verify the carbs are not fouled and the floats are correct (everything all open up there right now so access is easy). It's getting gas b/c I can smell it and it spits it up when I try to start it. 5. Double check the cam timing (remove cam covers - big PITA). Very frustrating b/c i ran fine 1-month ago....
What you described sounds to me like 1. a ignition timing issue (advance mechanism, distributor position or engine link) 2. spark sequence (e.g. wires at the distributor mixed up) 3. pertronix magnet sleeve issues or distance to ignitor module too large 4. pertronix ignitor electronics defect or wiring/power supply problem 5. wet plugs The first test you should do is to check for the spark as explained above. Get a single spark plug and connect it to the king lead, then connect the plug to ground it by putting it on the engine or frame. Now let a friend turn the starter for several seconds, watch closely for the spark pattern. As the starter is turning the engine quite slowly, you should see a stable sequence of sparks without any timing issue between the sparks or even missing sparks. Any missing spark or variation in timing/sequence and you might want to check the installation/condition of the magnetic sleeve, distance of the sleeve to the ignitor modules, the installation of the two ignitor modules and the power and ground wiring. If this test is successful, remove the distributor cap and check with a flashlight for any dirt/moisture/cracks. Then check each spark wire by measuring the resistance (ohm, Ω with a multimeter, they should all be within 10% variation. Make sure that the spark wires are correctly wired to the distributor cap and spark plugs. If all tests so far have been good, you most certainly have a timing issue or the plugs are wet or fouled beyond recognition. Check the plugs first. Then make sure (again) that the rotor points on the correct distributor terminal when set to the first cylinder TDC. Try to start the engine. Does it appear to nearly start but wont? Then advance the timing by turning the distributor as the timing is too retarded. Does it kick back? Then turn the distributor a bit to retard the timing. Do you get a mix of kickbacks and/or backfires through the exhaust or carbs? Then your spark wires are mixed up. Let us know about the test results, especially how exactly the engine behaves and sounds when trying to start. Good luck, Adrian
Spark at each plug - check (used a timing light while my son cranked the car). Checked #1 and pointed it at the flywheel, light comes on ~PM1_4 Mark. Checked #5 and pointed it at the flywheel, light comes on ~PM5_8 Mark. So I'm getting spark, and it's close to being at the right point...needs minor adjustment but it SHOULD start (and it did 5-days ago). Gas in each carb (removed tops, floats working and bowls full). If the timing belt jumped, I would think it would have to jump so far that the car would not start AND something would be hitting and it would sound terrible. When I crank it, the carbs spit/caugh/pop.....it's just plain dead. It just seems like there is no spark but every test I've done says I do have spark. Plugs were slightly fouled, but I had some new ones so I gapped and put those in. Really stumped here. As I posted earlier, it ran fine 4-weeks ago. No spitting, caughing, etc...once I got the front dizzy right, it fired right up and ran fine. It only has ~ a gallon of gas, but it it were dry I'd think that the float bowls would be empty? No?? Also, I would not get the spitting out the carbs.
Just to make sure I've got this correct... Which cylinder is #1? From p 75 of the owners manual, it shows that #1 is on the driver side, front bank (near the fire wall) then 2, 3, 4 is on the passenger side. #5 is on the rear bank (at the trunk) on the passenger side, 6, 7, 8 is on the driver side. Right? Or do I have it backwards?
No (the long "snout" on the crankshaft in that OM figure is the timing belt end of the engine) #1 is in the rear bank (near the trunk) on the RH (US passenger) side #5 is in the foward bank (near the firewall) on the LH (US Driver) side Image Unavailable, Please Login
OK, I confused myself with the manual. I had it right the first time. It should be; Front 5-6-7-8 4-3-2-1 Rear I'll try and get it lined up tomorrow again, but I'm at a loss here. I've lined it all up 2-3 times and the timing light confirmed I had it right to begin with. Spark, gas, compresion - it's there...but it just won't start. I have not taken off the cam covers but I really don't think that is it. It ran fine 1m ago and the tensioners have not moved (they are locked down). Even if it jumped a tooth, it should still fire. Run like crap yes but it should still go. Gas is going in b/c it spits out (which tells me it's a spark issue) and the plugs are all wet (check a few of them). Is it possible that the spark is so weak that it would not start? Bad coils maybe b/c that's about all I've got left.
Carbs backfiring indicates that the spark takes place in the intake phase. Any chance that you mixed up the two black wires coming from the two Pertronix modules and going to the two coils?
I know that you said it previously ran, but you also said (in the other thread): "My next step is going to be to take off the RR, roll the engine over and verify that both dizzy's are at TDC." which really isn't adequate as it has to be at TDC AND at the end of the compression stroke. Likewise, this test: only confirms that it could be "close to being at the right point...needs minor adjustment but it SHOULD start (and it did 5-days ago)", or that it could be off by 1 revolution of the crankshaft. If you literally didn't remove the distributors between "it ran" and "now it doesn't run" (and made no other electrical changes), this doesn't apply, but IMO it wouldn't hurt to manually rotate the crankshaft in the normal direction (CW as viewed from the timing belt end) until the flywheel pointer is at PM1-4 AND the timing mark on the 1-4 intake cam is aligned with the mark on the cam cap (as viewed thru the oil fill hole), remove the 1-4 dist cap, and confirm/deny if the 1-4 dist rotor is pointing towards the #1 contact in the 1-4 dist cap. Rotate the crankshaft another 90 deg CW to the PM5-8 mark and then remove the 5-8 dist cap and confirm/deny if the 5-8 dist rotor is pointing at the #5 contact in the 5-8 dist cap. Let us know what gets it going (I'm being positive ).
I did not touch anything between "it ran" and now. But I think a combination of things led to this. First, I think the dist. was not tight and it rolled as I was starting the car on Sunday. It got started, but it ran rough. I think after I parked it and then tried to start it 4-days later, it was just to far off to go. Then, I jacked it up, took off the wheels and checked everything (TDC on compression, timing marks, rotor in right place, etc...). When I jacked it up, it was leaning to one side and all the gas went to the passenger side. My neighbor came to help me and he asked about the fuel pick up and D'OH on my part...no gas going to pump. So I leveled the car and now I have gas. But before that I'd really screwed things up by swiching the caps b/c I thougth I had them wrong. Another bonehead move on my part - I was tired and grouchy late last night and should have stopped sooner. Finally did and knew I needed to just start all over again so I called it a night. I started all over today, and it still would not start. Then I checked Don King's instruction and he specifically states that the rotor needs to be at the TRAILING EDGE of #1 on the cap. It was more like at the leading edge. So I pulled the dizzy, rolled the rotor one spline, put it back on, double checked TDC, etc....Turn the key and it started. Got the timing gun on it and set it to 7°BTDC and it ran an idles very nicely. I'll pull the plugs tomorrow to see how they look. I just knew it was a timing issue. Not to mentions I shot myself in the foot with the gas pick up, then started thinking to much...oiy....Frustrating. Now I get to go back and tune the carbs as they are not 100%. A few cylinders are a bit hight on the air flow.
