C&D: 599 HGTE vs. LF-A

The lease program wasn't something they just made up; it's been around almost since the car was officially unveiled a year ago. For the price, it was something that was going to command a premium. Only 500 units. A car made largely of CF and aluminum, with an engine and transmission built from the ground up for only this car. A unique interior with nothing except maybe one or two parts shared with any other Lexus, and overall build quality on a par or higher than the Italian exotics, even in prototype form. The multiple 24 hour endurance tests on the Nordschleife, a circuit so tortuous it caused the Enzo's dampers to fail after a couple of laps, as well as twisting and tearing the subframe on Pagani's Zonda R during their record run session. Then there is the LFA's sound, for which I'm certain some will be willing to pay a good deal just to have whenever they want it. On top of that, the dealer service: a dedicated sales rep for each customer, as well as a dedicated technician, from what I'm hearing. This is the level of attention to customer service one might expect of Maybach and McLaren. And a warranty as good as any Lexus, which is to say far better than many exotics. Command a premium? Why not?
As for being sold out, they had received 1200 serious expressions of interest. They could have sold the car out in Japan alone. The few available units left sounded to me like they were merely re-shuffling allotments to get the car into markets with their desired level of exposure. There will always be people who back out of orders for whatever reason, and if Lexus sees an opportunity to fill those with orders in other markets, so be it.
The LFA, to me, represents that Lexus (usually known for boring appliances) can do an involving, track-ready weapon with much of the drama in terms of subjective feedback we've come to expect only from Italian exotics. A concentration on the experience of driving, rather than making merely what is fast (also in line with Italian exotics), combined with impeccable build and exceptional service. It's also an engineering exercise that might offer a peek into future applications of CF in lower end models. That they are bringing their own interpretation of what a supercar should be, and thus offering an interesting alternative to the market, should be celebrated IMO. The fact that we're even talking about a Lexus that can be legitimately compared to a V12-powered Ferrari with handling pack is quite remarkable too. The standard 599 wan't exactly a slug to begin with.

 

Load up a LS 600h and your 20k north of 100k.

http://www.lexus.com/configurator/#/summary/?zip=75219&group=LS%20Hybrid

 

Here are a few for you, I guess you should do some fact checking...

1997 Supra
12/19/08 MANHEIM Regular $11,200 96,320 Avg GREEN 6G A No
01/14/09 BALTWASH Regular $12,200 96,435 Avg Green A No
05/12/09 BIG H Regular $12,400 120,377 Avg BLACK 6G A No
08/12/09 MILWAUKE Regular $18,600 50,418 Avg BLACK 6G A No
11/17/09 STATESVL Regular $15,700 79,474 Avg WHITE 6G A No

Here are some more...

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?lastBeginningStartYear=1981&num_records=25&search_lang=en&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&search_type=both&distance=0&address=75219&marketZipError=false&make=TOYOTA&model=SUPRA&make2=&start_year=1993&end_year=2011&min_price=&max_price=25000&seller_type=b&transmission=&engine=&drive=&doors=&fuel=&max_mileage=100000&color=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&keywords_display=&sort_type=priceDESC&body_code=0&certified=&advanced=y&highlightFirstMakeModel=&showZipError=n&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&awsp=false&systime=&sownerid=100002802&rdm=1288763400839

 

That comes down to marketing, you don't like the self-hype they gave it. I don't see how that's "what it stands for" but that's ok, maybe I just don't agree so that's why I can't see it.

 

Perhaps a poor choice in wording. I guess I just didnt like the "execution?" Who knows. All good

 

The question is not if Toyota (or Honda, GM, Ford, etc.) can spend 10 years on a money-losing car that is first rate with mostly bespoke parts, but whether they could build a large series of them and make money over the long run doing it. The LFA is a show car that was productionized as a halo car for Toyota. Ferrari has a whole series of cars that they make money selling, and the fact that a car first produced in 2006 is still competitive with a money-no-object show-piece for the largest car manufacturer in the world is still pretty impressive. A better comparision would have been with the 458, the latest car from Maranello, and a good $100K cheaper. That would have been no contest. The same would be true for the 599 successor, and probably the 612 successor coming out next year.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

I also think a comparison with the 458 would've made more sense. It seems to me that, despite being front engined, the LFA is more of a competitor for the 458 and the other cars in that class (although the price difference is big). The LFA has hp closer to that class, and despite what some on this board have said, most reviews have painted the car as more of a pure sports car, and not really a gt. The interior might be very vell finished and suggestive of a gt, but most tests that I've read have cited the car's hard ride and jerky gearbox as keeping the car from being a good gt. Also the engine (what a great noise it makes!) is a screamer that revs all the way to 9k, but doesn't seem to have the torque/ torque curve that you'd want in a gt car. Basically it seems that this car is positioned to be a 458/mp4-12c/etc rival, that Lexus then decided to make out of CF, boosting the price to $400k.

 

i was shocked the ferrari was more expensive. and $30k for carbon interior? thats insane. i dont like big heavy front engine gt's in general but i would have to take the lexus over the 599. dark colors would help a great deal with the looks

 

The answer to the first sentence is that this does not appear to be long-term project, which has evolved in part to find cost-effective means of mass-producing CF, and which has spiritual ties to its F1 effort (now ended). So to compare to the 458 (what, maybe ~10k total units?) is no better a match; that car is from a long line of predecessors and has drivetrain development from other models. In the marketplace, they certainly aren't competitors. A person buying the LFA probably has the means to buy the 458 too. And after a few years, that $100k price difference is probably meaningless, if depreciation on 360's is anthing to go buy. Ever checked the depreciation rate on a 2000GT from its original MSRP?


As to the ride/power characteristics expected of a GT, the LFA rated a 8 where the Ferrari rated 10. Is that such a large margin? To some, maybe. It's doesn't seem anything as bad as a car like, say, a Viper which C&D rates 5. They rate the V12 Vantage at 7 and if that's not a GT, then what is it? Chris Harris, who also likens the LFA to the 599, reckons they ride about as well:
"overall the 2011 Lexus LFA feels about as relaxed on the pavement as a Ferrari 599 GTB, which makes it entirely happy as we trundle away."

He also addresses the powertrain issue:
"Some 552 hp might not sound like much these days, but this car weighs just 3,263 pounds. The combination translates into some ferocious performance once the V10 is fully lit, which is at anything above 3,000 rpm."
Even though the LFA actually weighs some 300 lbs more than that, he's doesn't doubt the performance and response.
In this test, C&D rates them both the same for engine flexibility. That's quite something considering the 599's superior torque (peaking 1200 rpm lower than the Lexus), and higher torque/wt. For every test saying the LFA is gutless at low revs, there are probably two tests saying the opposite. Here's just another, from C&D:
"The V-10 is so flexible that the driver can deposit the car in sixth gear at relatively low speeds—say 50 mph—floor the throttle, and the car will rocket to 150 mph in a hurry."

 

Sorry, but what's your point?

Ever check out the depreciation rate of a (insert any '60s Ferrari here) from it's original MSRP?

 

My point was pretty clear: that a paying customer might very well look beyond the $100k MSRP and consider other things, like depreciation.
If I'm not mistaken, most '60s Ferraris weren't built in the kinds of volumes we're seeing with modern V8 Ferraris. Correct?

 

Ah. In that case I actually agree with you.

 

What Supras are you looking at? The link you gave me... I get this.



* 98,000 miles

* Silver

A true jdm car right hand drive twin turbo im selling it due to the fact that i need the money cause im Moving away for college!! im asking for $25,000 or best offer .Always garaged, Ice cold A/C, Fully loaded, Maintenance records available, Mu... read more

So you see, like I said, at 100K miles, Supras are still asking 25k. Point proven. You should look at the site you gave and see the rest...

The lowest I see on there is 18K with 64K miles. The Supra holds its value, and with some examples at 50K miles I've seen go for $30K. There's nothing indicating the LFA will lose it's value like you say.

 

How can you honestly compare a reasonably priced sports car from the 90's value with a obscenely expensive exotic? Apples and oranges there.....

And for the record, the supra holds it value because its already depreciated. These werent 30G cars off the lot. Talk to the guys that lost 20G's and then start comparing depreciation...

 

I'm not talking about materials used or the quality therein. If that's the case the Zonda F and now the Huayra are the epitome of a GT car, which they clearly are not.

I'm talking about room for bags and such behind the driver, in addition to a large sports car trunk, ride height, ingress/egress etc. true GT characteristics.

The LFA, though a Toyota in mechanicals, is still an extreme sports car, hence the carbon body, and very "intimate" interior. That's why they said that in the beginning of the video. "The 599 is an old-fashioned GT car...."

To me, the engine is the only reason to buy one. The exterior looks ridiculous- like a piece of origami- and the interior is decent I suppose, with a few clever tricks.

I'd take a 458 over one in a heartbeat.

 

talk about digging up an old thread...

and the Lexus is NOT mid-engine, it's front mid, just like the 599. but the packaging is so much better, the engine tiny, overhangs do make it look mid mounted.