question re: 328 major service

You would be very surprised how many times in the course of a work week I say 'No' to doing some repairs. Unfortunately for me these are usually very profitable repairs but are not in the customers best long term interest. We are the ones inside the car, we know what shape the car is and sometimes we form educated gut feelings about a given system where, with no evidence we know it will be problematic down the road. Honestly it can get quite entertaining at times with me making "deals" with the owner. "If your car behaves itself for the next 3 months and the 'XXXX' doesn't cause any problems, then I will do 'XXX' that you want". Niki has to go into the office because she cant keep a straight face any longer... Hey, its a passion for us as well, we are owners for all the same reasons as you folks are. Think about it for a moment. You have Brian (I will use him as an example because he is involved in this thread, I know him well and dont give a hoot if he likes it) and myself as two examples. Both of us are at the 4 decade mark in this business. What is the likelihood either person in that position would slide in an extra $500... 700, pick a number, charge just to pad a bill? What is a 40 year reputation worth in a small closed market like this? That said.... if I was presented with the opportunity to slide in a HIGH 6 figure padding....EVERYONE has their breaking point! For a few hundred dollars, even 1000, who would risk 40 years and have to keep looking over their shoulder?

Furmano, Thank You!, is the text book perfect example of what I am speaking of. The car comes in, I know his concerns, I look in my files to review my personal notes of my long term concerns from the last repair process, I have a comfort level budget set by him and I fix the car. No write ups, no calling 4 places to shop parts estimates, no phone tag to get estimate approvals where I have to jump on another project while waiting.... just fix the car, email some progress photo's before I go home at night, wash it and deliver it. What is that worth in the course of my day? Priceless! Would I risk that relationship for a little padding? Not on your life, I would go out of my way to repay that trust by finding even cheaper ways yet to accomplish what was needed.... and so a relationship is grown, everyone can work efficiently and quickly and an owner gets his car back in a timely manner. I don't have to spend money advertising for work (90% is by referral), WAG estimates that have to be padded because of unknowns don't exist and as much as I would love it... I don't have fine Italian ceramic tile on the shop floor. Why is it expensive? The PROPER tools, insurance, over head and situations the owners are creating themselves resulting in a viscous circle.

The problem's in this market today is ego, lack of respect by either party and the inability of many to say "I don't know, I have not seen this before and do not understand it... yet". A simple matter of honesty with the owners, most often driven by ego. Funny part, that ego problem is on both sides of the argument with some owners "knowing everything there is to know about their car". Well hell, what are you doing here, fix it yourself, you don't need me you can do it yourself in 3 hours time... and so starts the waste of a half hours worth of time usually resulting in me being "too busy" to deal with their problems at the moment. I then refer them to someone else and within a day I get a call from that shop starting with "You SOB".

Both Tom and Brian are right. Some times it amounts to a waste of time but sometimes good questions deserve a complete answer showing the other sides thought process. The photo's I posted were real world, end of the day progress photo's resulting from attempted quick fixes... how in the world would anyone quote this type of work? Think a belt change is any different? Think again!
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Brian, I get your frequent comments on the do-it-yourselfers, I am one of those and I have botched a few jobs for sure, although I always (try) to make it right. In my short 3 year ferrari ownership experience, I have had 4 bad experieces with local "fcar" mechanics. The first, who recommended the car I bought, did not disclose any of the issues with the car (my fault for trusting, and not getting a second opinion). The second replaced the steering rack and full brakes, which I later found to be in fine working order. The third put the cam caps in backwards and siezed an exhaust valve, I wound up helping him with the cost, and the fourth I had to go pickup my car via trailer bc he wouldnt return my calls (in Novato....). I had taken him a problem I had botched up granted...so I deserved that as well. I guess my problem was not taking the car to you in the first place, but its too late now as I have the balls and 1/2 the knowledge to do just about anything I still feel like there are alot of bad actors out there that claim to be fcar mechanics providing two-bit service. I know, two sides to every story but thats my side and I am stricking to it. For those of you, Brian and Dave, keep up the great work and find some good appretices so the art is not lost.

 

I totally understand your point. I use the term for lack of a better one. I have clients that are just as capable to do good quality repairs on their cars as I am but have no time or resources I also know that the market place is filled with unqualified and unscrupulous people that do nothing but harm to an entire industries reputation. Unfortunately due to public perception and legal liability the ones who know best who those shops and individuals are, are least able to speak about it.

 

Tom, this thread wasn't started to bash mechanics/dealers. It was mainly for information. I am not even a DIYer. For me, it was doing my homework and trying to understand. This site is better than "googling" when it comes to this matter. At the end of the day, I'm not taking my car to another shop bec. it's "cheaper." But still, Ferrari prices are ridiculous .

Are you still into r/c stuff?

Cheers,
Ron

 

On that there is no question. The photo's I posted verify the statement.

 

Sledge, it sounds like you and I need to sit down with a fine bottle of spirits and have a little "therapy session".

After I bought my Mondi and found it to be in other-than-disclosed condition, I called around only to hear my PPI mechanic called such names as "scam artist", "crook" and "[CENSORED]". Yeah, my bad for not doing my homework, even though I spent months researching Mondis before jumping into mine.

I understand Rifledriver's sentiment, but it seems we live in times where even an established mechanic can be the "wrong hands" into which your beauty can fall. As my old man said: "If you want a job done right, sometimes you have to do it yourself".

 

This has been a really great thread.

Mechanics have always had a presumed bad rap that comes from generations of horror stories, and media portrayal of the lowest common denominator. It seems that most customers are already of the opinion that they will be ripped off, even before a relationship has been formed. When I was quite a bit younger, I used to take it personally. I've found out over the years that making an honest effort to educate the client as to exactly what you are doing in language that they understand, tends to disarm the prejudice over time. Show and tell with bad parts, why they went bad, and what we have to do to try and make sure it doesn't happen again, gives the customer knowledge they didn't have before. The longer the relationship, the more empowered the customer feels to make decisions, and the more they enjoy their machinery.

Almost as satisfying as doing a job with a high level of craft, is knowing that a customer that used to know next to nothing about their car, now enjoys becoming more of a car person.

Then, there are the customers who are already car competent, already get it. When they are satisfied with the work you've done, there really is no better feeling. It makes it all worth it. There are also those who will never get it. But, that's a subject for another post.

 

I certainly didnt mean to bash mechanics, esp since the guys that frequent these boards are top knotch and that would be an insult. There are idiot on both sides of the fence no doubt. It been a true life saver for me personally having fchat as a resource. I have had people offer to call me over the weekend and walk me through something I was struggling with and I think that is cool. In turn, i've sent them compensation via paypal. Its saved me for sure, and I paid more than willingly for the advice.

 

Interesting thread,
When I purchased my 328, I planned on doing all the work myself, and after getting great advice from those who actually work on these cars for a living, I kinda changed my tune.

I have no issue with doing belts, oil changes and other repairs on my assortment of cars over the years, but when I got the 328, I realized that paying someone to do the job does a couple of things. My car has always been worked on by a Ferrari mechanic, and in my opinion, adds value to the car, and I know the person working on my car is trained to spot things that I might miss, as I try to learn the ins and out of these cars. So far me, it basically comes down to piece of mind.

When I decided that I need to have my belts done, I purchase Hill bearings and belts from our sponsor, and took the car to RTGT to have them do the work, and they did the job for what I felt was a reasonable price and found a few other things that needed attention, and gave me the option to have the work done at the time.

So bottom line, could I done the job cheaper? yes, no doubt. Did it get done right, I assume so, since the car seems perfect, they sent me pictures as they had the car apart.
I have done some projects on my car, but for me, I feel better knowing a trained mechanic is working on my car, and I am willing to pay for it.

As a matter of fact, I had scheduled an appointment to take my car over to RTGT today to change my oil, transaxle, brake and coolant, but due to so much snow on the pass, I had to cancel ;-(
Not afraid of the car in the snow, it's all the rock they throw on the road and those other drivers.....

 

Ron, This wasn't a shot at you at all, just a response to how this thread has kinda turned against shops charging for work on a car (Ferrari's) that are very high in liabilities. It seems the over all tone is trying to fix expensive cars on the cheap, and it does not work..ever.

R/c stuff..well I do have them still, but I haven't played with them in a long time. Heck they might not even work anymore!!

Tom.

 

Ah, but it does Tom. Usually for long enough to pawn it off on a new unsuspecting owner. At that point the car, model, marque, mechanic.... everything but the buyer is blamed.

I do understand the frustration the owners are expressing, no one has stated it better than Brian about the inability of some to be unable to speak. It is productive and respectful threads like this, rare as they may be, that better help me understand why there is the move there is. Once again Brian stated it best (he is an eloquent old cuss) in that there are many owners fully capable of doing world class work, with some choosing not to for various reasons.

Of the seasoned pro's, I do not know a single one that has anything against DIY work. Speaking for myself only, what chaps me is watching some that really have little to no clue giving advise that is sure to cause damage and stating an idea as fact. This type of thing is expected on any entry level model but I never considered a Ferrari to be an entry level Marque.

Some shops have enough work load they do not need to "create work". They understand the only way an owner will find the Ferrari experience satisfying is when the car is reliable and working as designed. I have watched it happen many times where a car is properly repaired and that repair bill amount becomes the new "Standard" of pricing for all of the shops that advertise they work on Ferrari's. There are sound reasons why shopping for work and comparing them all as apples to apples is absurd at best. It is for those reasons most of the pro's will not discuss what is done in "Their" major services. They have taken hard learned lessons and a long history with the marque and developed what they consider to be a Service that has the best interest of the owner in mind. Cheap, it likely is not but Value comes in many forms. Think all of the independents are "out of the loop"? Think again, we spend hours each week on the phone with one another discussing failure trends in each of our unique regions and new ideas/methods to deal with problems. Don't think for a moment that all of the shops, be it independent of authorized do the same, why would you price them as the same?

 

This a good point, and one I am taking away from this thread. Those novices (myself included) do need to be careful about dispensing technical advice. One carb rebuild does not an expert make. OTOH, when I comb the boards for advice I usually triangulate on a few threads to get different views, ideas, common thoughts, etc., so maybe the harm is not so great. Nonetheless its a good take away.

I am happy that I have been able to get my car running under my own hands, although I realize it probably took me 1000's hours to do so where it would have take a good, honest pro probably 10
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Who cares how long it took, the reward is as sweet regardless.

It is good to debate ideas and thoughts here. There are as many ways to do a job as there are jobs to do, no one has the 'only' right answer... albeit some answers are 'righter' and some are risky