new 02's, Hperflow | FerrariChat

new 02's, Hperflow

Discussion in '348/355' started by jeffdavison, Nov 4, 2010.

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  1. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison F1 Rookie
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    #1 jeffdavison, Nov 4, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2010
    4 new Bosch 02 sensors (2 post & 2 pre) + Hyperflo cats = P0422 below threshold C.E.L. & = --$$$

    no comprendo

    JD
     
  2. Troomi

    Troomi Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
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    bay area, ca
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    tariq
    i am facing the same issue

    hyperflow/tubi set up
    4 new o2 sensors - 3 new cat ecus

    p0422/p0432 = cel

    the hyperflows are less than a year old

    -T
     
  3. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #3 davehelms, Nov 4, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2010
    Working on it for a week now..... more to follow.
     
  4. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison F1 Rookie
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    Troomi, yep I have a Tubi too

    Dave..... hope? :)

    JD
     
  5. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    on offending bank1 check for intake leaks???

    check sensor wiring

    I'll throw this out and you see if it sticks. I have noticed more of these efficiency codes with "high flow" aftermarket cats but rarely with OEM cats unless there is an intake leak. My hillbilly answer to these efficiency problems have always been the same which is a hillbilly kluge that has worked 100% of the time for me on 100% of cars I have run including cars that have NO CATS but a fully functioning set of OBD2 O2 sensors that throw NO codes! The theory in my pee brain is that the real problem is not lack of cat efficiency but too much efficiency in the aftermarket cats. The solution is to change the ability to sample O2 in the exhaust stream of the second O2 sensor. Does that interest you are all? If so I'll post more on the subject.
     
  6. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    that is interesting, more please.
     
  7. Monteman

    Monteman Formula 3
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    From what I understand, the age of the cat is almost irrelevant because if there is something wrong upstream from it the best cat can still go bad in short order if the problem isn't addressed. Additionally, it is thought that Hyperflow's can't go bad. Another falsehood that I learned first hand but the good news is that Troy did right by me and I still swear by his product.
     
  8. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison F1 Rookie
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    #8 jeffdavison, Nov 4, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2010
    My tech at F.O.A really never misses a beat, so I really don't think it's from an improper install. I got the code driving home from the shopl.

    But how do you propose to kludge a fix? A washer or spacer to take it a little bit away from the direct exhaust flow stream?

    JD

     
  9. BLAMPEE

    BLAMPEE Man Card Status: Never Issued

    New headers, new Hyper-Flows, QuickSilver Exhaust...car was looked over by FoS in every detail and I still have P0422/P0432 as well. I just keep resetting it.

    FoS said there is no leaks anywhere and that some of the 355s just can't get rid of those damn codes.

    Here's what doesn't make sense to me:

    If it IS the Hyper-Flows (as stated by FoS), then why is it that SOME 355s never throw a CEL and SOME DO???

    Is there even an answer to this question???
     
  10. PKF355

    PKF355 Formula Junior

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    Sorry, I can't provide an answer to your question but I can attest to that SOME 355s never throw a CEL.

    I have stock headers, brand new Hyperflows and Capristo Level 2 installed for the past 4 years. I have never seen any P0422/P0432 or any codes. In fact, I have never even seen a CEL, not even once. I hope I don't jinx myself now ;).
     
  11. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison F1 Rookie
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    #11 jeffdavison, Nov 5, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
    what do you do come SMOG check time???

    CEL lit won't pass and unless a drive cycle is completed, the OBD2 machine at the test station will fail the car as well.

    I would really hate to just throw away Hyperflow money and double up on install costs and more cats :(

    My 355 is a 5.2 car (97) and wasn't throwing codes before, tho my scan tool said the cataylst was weak. That's why I went with the new O2's and Hyperflos.
    Car has 29K on the odo, so I fugured it was time.

    JD

     
  12. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    sounds like you know all about this. Here is what I actually use that works.
    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263479
     
  13. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    True on OBD! Some testors can clue you in if you have a drive cycle that will not set. Also, some codes will not register a cel yet but sort of a soft code that need more failures before a hard code is set. That can be a clue too. I am always skeptical on the weak cat issue. I know the 355 is an especially harsh environment but when everything is working right the ghosts go away. Sometimes you chase ghosts and the frustration is intense. Often there is some small thing that is just out of spec and bingo codes! I see 20 year old regular POS streetcars like dented beat up Hondas with 100's of thousands of miles running on 3/4 cylinders and the cats are fine. In all my years of driving all the cars I have owned I never needed a new cat but replaced for "improved flow". 29k miles is like a new car. I can't imagine you burn up a cat that fast. I think in ferrariworld we replace too many cats. Even the cr@p ferrari cats I have taken off that rattle on the inside will often pass a car eventhough we generally call those cats dead. I suspect you have other yet to be diagnosed problems upstream. I'd be smoke testing or propane testing for leaks and electronically testing for missfires, and looking for exhaust leaks all tests with hot and cold engine for starters. Then you have to go back to basics hunt there first and work your way out. I'm 100% convinced that since I can can get an obd2 car's ECU to think a straight pipe is a cat (i.e. fool the down stream O2 sensor) The ECU's cannot tell if or what cats are on the car or if they are good or bad. The code can only tell you they might be bad. We still need to think the problem through and prevent bandaid diagnosis and part replacement.
     
  14. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    #14 davehelms, Nov 5, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
    FALSE

    Bingo!

    Yes. A wise man once said "when everything is working right the ghosts go away"

    ""Dave..... hope?"" Right around the corner. Let's not get into the blame game, assumptions are just that. Troy is owed an apology from half the folks that have posted on this forum over the years. Now in the same position of making components for these cars...I feel his pain.
     
  15. mfennell70

    mfennell70 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
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    Middletown, NJ
    My 360 has Hyperflows and Tubi headers (air injection installed but no pre cats) and throws the occaisional cat efficiency code. Interestingly, the PO would get warm up codes but never efficiency codes. I never get a warm up code.

    So I have two thoughts on CELs coming on in some cars, not others, aside from possible issues with a particular car:

    1) Driving behavior affects this. I think the PO of my car tended to start it and let it warm up for a while. I start it and drive it. The cats warm up faster and no warm up codes. BUT, I live in a more congested area, so I think I'm stuck in traffic more than he was. The cats can cool down more, which leads me to -
    2) I have been told (by an OEM calibrator) that a behavior in the low-cell-count cats is that they don't hold their heat so well with low exhaust flows. They can cool and stop being effective. I note that my Hyperflows have been ceramic coated. I believe this was an attempt to combat this behavior.

    I am aware that my '01 360 is a different beast since I'm trying to use the secondary cats as "mains" where the car was calibrated with pre-cats as "mains".
     
  16. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison F1 Rookie
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    #16 jeffdavison, Nov 5, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
    FANTASTIC (I hope )
    I have till June next year to sort this out.

    Thanks Dave.... waiting patiently


    JD

     
  17. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
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    Factory catalysts have been made available for $2800 a pair. The concern is the Hyperflows (while a great product) do not play nicely with the 5.2 motronic software. Ferrari uses a different strategy to calculate catalyst efficiency then most manufacturers. What are the precat four gas readings. Most of the concerns revolve around high emissions either due to incorrect valve timing or valve guide concerns or driving habits that find the software window that throws codes. best of luck.
     
  18. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
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    Dave,
    Anything more on the Hyperflow dilemna some are experiencing? Is the use of this spacer for the post cat O2 sensor really a solution, or just a band-aid?

    Dave
     
  19. hotrod406

    hotrod406 Formula Junior

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    I've also used a piece of 3/4" tubing bent 90 degrees with the O2 bung on the end. It sort of takes the spacer idea to an extreme. It works on 2008+ Chevy Cobalts with no cats as well as other cars that would throw cat codes before the modification.
     
  20. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

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    chris
    +1
     
  21. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    Everyone has their theory, I have mine and none of them agree.

    There are folks that are completely unable to get a HF Cat to work with the Motronic systems and then there are those of us that have never had a problem with them and diagnosis proved the problem to be caused by something else in the system. Remember, there were some problems with these systems we were told we had to accept as normal.... until I developed the Gold Connector Kit and some of those problems were solved once and for all.

    There are many variables involved in this problem. If we take for granted (quite a leap) the engines are in sound shape, the cam timing is perfect and the fuel is flammable..... We still have:

    *Aftermarket Cats, that can then be broken down into multiple categories by manufacturer and matrix design, all causing the same problems in the same manner??? Not likely.
    *O2 sensors, that can be broken down into the retro fit universal after market type, the OEM supplied via Ferrari and those coming directly from Bosch and break them all up into date batches
    *Regional fuel quality, fuel make up, ambient weather conditions, harness connections, engine or system modifications, injector condition........... My list of variables is about two pages long, anyone else looking at it with the blinders off?

    Throw those into a statistical equation and how many variables do you have? There is a trend that is showing if ALL of the data is reviewed but no one is looking at it. So far I have had long conversations with Cat manufacturers, O2 sensor engineers, Motronic engineers and my own design team. There are BIG players involved that are well beyond 'making mistakes' (one day I could only wish to be a 100th that good) and that shell had to be cracked before constructive discussions can be had.

    I fault no one for their opinions or theories but they are just that until there is hard data to prove a point. Replacing components before everything is understood amounts to blindly throwing parts at a car on guesses, albeit somewhat educated ones. When I developed the Gold Connector Kit I proved there were a untold number of variables no one had even considered yet. The proof is on the table with that yet there are those that still do not believe it. Assume nothing, prove everything and at this point there is no hard proof yet there is finger pointing. Some of my tests on this problem have PROOVED some big players wrong in their theories yet I do not find that evidence enough to point fingers at a cause, only to define yet another theory.
     
  22. davehelms

    davehelms F1 Rookie

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    Which ones? What is the matrix design of those now being supplied by Ferrari?
     
  23. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
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    Also keep in mind that the 5.2 Motronic had 4 software evolutions plus a F1 version. Many of the sofware revisions were to address fuel addaptive issues and catalyst evaluation. To know which evolution you have look at the number in the lower left corner of the label. There will be a 001, 002 ect. This should also be evaluated when trying to determine a pattern failure (false warning)
     
  24. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
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    As far as the catalysts are concerned the original design Ferrari catalyst with the metal spiral matrix have been made available again and the factory has reduced the prices by 50%. Ferrari is finally listening to the dealers and reducing the costs of many of the maintenance items specifically in the wake of the 355 fuel block recall.
     
  25. Joe G.

    Joe G. Formula 3
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    :)
     

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