He had a daughter as well, I believe..... I thought the Judge had a Court Order in, regarding moving or disposing of the vehicle?
You are correct. Ohio court docs show Florence, his only child, was co-owner of 0384AM along with Jacques. We will await disposition of his estate which will likely transfer control or administration of his share of 0384AM to her. The role and relationship, if any, of Jean Marc Pajot in this matter is unclear. Ferrari Classiche DID report Mr. Pajot regarding 0384AM. I will give the family some time to adjust to their loss, then reach out to Florence to see if we can resolve things without a protracted court battle which will not end well for them based on what I have already seen. The court order is a "maintain the status quo" order such that no one can sell, move, alter, or transport the car or parts until the Ohio Judge says so. The estate of Jacques is bound the same way as was Jacques. Joe
So all this "sold to the Factory, for display in the Museum" is a smoke screen or ????? I don't envy you battling Ferrari themselves, to get the car back....
SPOKANE, Wash. After 36 years it is finally home. Michelle Squires' 1964 VW Bus was trailered back to Spokane this week from California where it was found last year. The van was stolen from an upholstery shop in the Browne's Addition area of the city in 1974. Squires thought it would never be seen again, then a customs agent discovered the stolen van at the Port of Los Angeles. The van had been restored and was on its way to Germany. It never made it. Squires was notified the van had been found, and she went to work to get it back. An attorney in Oklahoma saw the story in the Wall Street Journal and offered her services pro bono. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40687821/?gt1=43001 * Hmmmmm. After that long, and after restoration. Titles and paperwork do matter.
It's happened in the Corvette world as well............where more Corvettes have been titled for certain years than were ever manufactured..... If Ferrari IS moving #0384 it would be in contempt....they don't seem worried about that.
Translated to English from French by Google, From: http://www.lesautomobilesextraordinaires.com/main.aspx?page=text&id=57&cat=lesautosextra Michel Kruch was the Belgian dealer who bought the stolen portion of 0384AM from an Atlanta broker for $4,500. That Bill of Sale described it as 40% complete. The view of Michael Kruch ... I have discussed with Michael Krush who is quoted in the article by John Drane as Sports Car Market has released ... The case according to him, is not really like John Drane (Oregon attorney) explained in Sports Car Market, or as the bishop (or invoking) the heiress daughter of Karl Kleve: Miss Kristine Kleve Lawson ... Here's what Michael just told me by phone Krush (I'm in Brussels, Michel is currently on holiday in the U.S.): In fact, the car that had not completely burned, but had been rendered inoperable following a fire behind the dashboard (grade) was abandoned in 1958 in a huge wooded lot in the middle of hundreds of carcasses (Wreck) all kinds of cars also abandoned by the federation race of the day. It is a scrap metal dealer who has noticed this wreck and came into the wasteland. It took about a week to remove the wreckage of the mud in which it was embedded as. Then he placed it on his truck and trailer has made pictures he sent to hundreds and hundreds of garages and Ferrari collectors in the offering at a price of about U.S. $ 4500! Nobody wanted to, not even the largest wholesale dealers and Ferrari in the USA. At that time (late '80) Ferrari collection were worth virtually nothing, and the concept of "collector car" was still unclear. This is a big seller Ferrari sent a copy of photos of the wreckage at the truck-trailer, Michel Kruch with whom he had occasionally business. Michel Kruch then bought the car on behalf of his garage "The Automobile Exception" as qu'épave for U.S. $ 4500 and brought him back to Belgium in Brussels where he has contacted various car dealers and collectors to to resell at a profit "normal" ... (Note that since the garage "The automobile exception" no longer exists, the garage has its own legal status and does not mix with the private Michel Kruch, it has strictly more legally accountable and is not legally responsible for anything) ... In this lap time, the market for collectible cars has seen an explosion of values, mainly the Ferrari ... and the wreck that had just bought Kruch Michel began to assert more and more, fueling a sudden lust for all those who had been contacted a few months earlier by the scrap ... As the law allows the U.S. to claim property for 100 years (I quote from memory) hundreds of people began to claim ownership of this Ferrari ... It was as spontaneous Michel Kruch went to see the Belgian Police to alert them that the wreckage of the Ferrari S / N 0384AM was at home ... The police came to see ... and then a prosecutor, who seized the car, but they were all amazed that this "thing" semie rotten and totally unusable can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. According to Michel Kruch Karl Kleve was no longer owns the wreck that the hundred other people who claimed. According to the legal principle in Belgium of the "good faith" after years of worries and attorneys' fees, the wreck has been discharged and Michel Kruch could sell it. That Philip Lancksweert he sold it, who then resold to Jacques Swaters ... Why? Because according to Belgian law, the purchaser "third" is deemed to "good faith" when there were three buyers between the alleged stolen and him ... Thus (subtlety) at Belgian Jacques Swaters had no fear that the wreckage of the Ferrari S / N 0384AM be granted or claimed ... There remained the problem that the wreckage had no engine, or "alt" or registration documents ... So totally stupid and using its world leading position in the Ferrari, Jacques Swaters completed paperwork for a car chassis S / N 0394AM to have "peace" ... Then he rebuilt the car from A to Z. .. In reality, this car is a total replica and has nothing in common with the true S / N 0284AM except that it is more beautiful than a copy ... its existence, even the engine has been re-manufactured A to Z, unrelated to a real Ferrari engine ... Period For "peace" (bis) ... especially because "Bitza" not worth much ... could be worth $ 5 million if it had its engine and its true real papers as S / N 0385AM, Swaters Jacques Philippe Lanksweert mandated to buy the Title and registration documents to the only person who, among the hundreds of others who claimed the car in the U.S. (in the meantime become elusive in Belgium under Belgian law of 3 consecutive buyers after the "stolen" ) ... Karl Kleve ... At this point, and I said that Michael Kruch has nothing more to see ... we do not yet know if Karl Kleve actually sold the Title and the missing pieces or if Philip Lanksweert have been abused or have achieved a false as a purchase order to improperly obtain a copy of the Title of the Ferrari issued by the Ohio ... So even if the car was "stolen" in the U.S., it is only through the scrap metal dealer who has done all given for 10 days ... and the final purchaser, Jacques Swaters in Belgium, could not be more worried and "his" car before ... When Jacques Swaters claims that the car he had built in imitation 0384AM would "sound" which 0394AM 0384AM unrelated ... he did not legally wrong! In his logic, he buys Title 0384AM to Karl Kleve (then to his daughter) via Lancksweert Philippe, to enhance "his" Building ... So Karl Kleve (and now his daughter Katrine) that legally (the American side) they can take money value ... what is normal and not illegal ... In the final, would be more logical to believe that intermediaries have cheated their respective clients, or that the money from this transaction has actually been paid and that Karl Kleve received nothing ... or that no payment been done and that Philip has made a false Lancksweert deed of purchase to obtain a copy of the Title ... It is only this that is at stake .. To complicate the false 0384AM rebuilt is now at Ferrari SPA and they are held up to the true original engine 0384AM who was in a speed boat in the U.S. ... So if the engine was in the hands of Karl Kleve and his daughter Katrina, how has it happened to Ferrari? This is a case or, in my opinion, there is no honesty in any part! Whether it be with the Bugatti and Ferrari in particular, it is only too often a fool's bargain and crabs, the case in 250GTO garnier-Favre was a good example ... I have very abundantly explained and illustrated ... In a final purchase late '80, less than U.S. $ 10,000, this "Bitza" rebuilt from scratch, with a Title 0384AM and a true original engine, will ultimately "worth" 10 million U.S. $ ... Image Unavailable, Please Login
Hommage à Jacques Swaters... Début des années '80, j'avais déposé ma Dino 246 GT chez ce "Grand" monsieur de l’automobile en Belgique, ce pilote, garagiste, importateur, team manager, collectionneur dans l’âme, Jacques Swaters..., pour changer les bougies et réaliser un entretien ce "Grand Monsieur" m'avait compté (je donne le chiffre en euros), plus de 3.000 euros !!! 500 euros la bougie ! Devenir un "Grand-Monsieur" en pratiquant des tarifs prohibitifs ne me parait pas très digne, mais on a la dignité qu'on peut... Son vendeur/directeur, Mr Langswerp avait surenchérit en me disant : "Si vous n'avez pas les moyens, roulez en Lada"... Éditant à cette époque les magazines "Chromes & Flammes" qui étaient diffusés mensuellement en 5 langues pour un total de 500.000 exemplaires, je l'ai trouvé "mauvaise" et depuis ce jour là, je voue une haine tenace envers les Ferrailleries et "ceusses" qui vont avec... Une haine profonde qui m'a amené à asséner ses 4 vérités à Enzo Ferrari du temps ou il vivait encore et venait de chasser Luigi Chinetti et faire procès (qu'il perdra) contre mon ami Favre qui finira suicidé par cette mafia... La vie m'a appris à fuir cet aspect surfait des choses et des gens. La seule "vertu" de ce "personnage" est d'avoir su manipuler l'argent qu'il percevait de ses clients... J'ai suggéré que l'année suivante, on commémore la grosse Lulu pour ses services rendus : "au moins ça ferait spermater tout ce qui est érectile"... Par la suite ce "grand monsieur" et ses ouailles, se sont retrouvés dans une sordide affaire de Ferrari volée et maquillée qui n'en finit pas de rebondir (The iconic Jacques Swaters, in a case of stolen Ferrari S/N 0384AM...) C'est vrai que j'ose rire de tout, principalement des cons, des pathétiques, des fonctionnaires et des politiciens, de même que des clichés qu'avalent les pires irréductiblement crétins. C'est sûr que je glisse malgré moi vers le ras-le-bol en dénonçant ces réalités honteuses. Je ne suis pas partisan de la fosse commune pour tous ces emmerdeurs, non, juste d'un bon coup de dérision bien de chez nous, histoire de rappeler que tout le monde n'est pas dupe de leur jeu. Et c'est comme ça qu'on construira une société légèrement meilleure. Pas en trichant avec le réel. C'est un amalgame aussi rapide que douteux sensé clouer le bec à tout mec politiquement incorrect. Hélas, je m'en tamponne total ! La liste est longue de mes écœurements. A l'arrivée, mieux vaut être du côté des parias qui dégueulent sur tout que d'accepter être les contemporains de ces abrutisseurs sur-médiatisés. La pensée déviante se doit d'être critique envers la pensée dominante du politiquement correct, sinon c'est cette dernière qui va nous ensevelir. Tant pis, nombre, fric, médias, puissance, sont contre moi, mais bientôt, parions que de plus en plus de gens, éjectés de la sphère d'influence médiatique (la zone d'attraction de cet électro-aimant mental), se brancheront sur des tuyaux malodorants pour échapper à l'étouffement. Le message passera par des égouts, toujours plus propres que ces rutilants canaux à idéologie pour esclaves ignorants que sont les orgues de Staline du pouvoir médiatique. Je ne vous fait pas la liste, vous connaissez par cœur. Le message est habitué à l'encrassage des tuyaux, c'est même la première leçon de cybernétique, cette drôle de science qu'étudiait Wiener dans les années 40. Pour les non initiés, c'est le conceptualisateur de la théorie de l'information. Les dominants n'ont qu'une peur : qu'on découvre la supercherie de leur domination. Parfois, dans l'Histoire, une étincelle a suffi pour mettre à bas la table des valeurs. Ceci étant dit, la vie quotidienne ne s'arrête pas. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thanks Patrice..... Well, there's that "abandoned scrap in the mud" again....and the period of time to extract it (one week, per that retelling) seems long, against Kleve's report of the theft...... Ocean Joe, how was the motor seperated from the car? Before Kleve bought it, or after? I'd think there's much more original metal in the vehicle as it sits than that retelling implies, based upon the Ferrari Factory's interest, and the 'test patches' seen in the photos.
That's included in the accounting above, David.....a good way to lose one, IMO.... Legend has it there's one in the Houston Ship Channel...somewhere.
Yep, the "abandoned car" and "junkyard" claims sounds like the self-serving rants of a thief or subsequent purchaser who knew the car was stolen, but bought it anyway. And the claim that "no one is the USA would buy it for $4,500 because no one wanted it" is more self-serving bull, as we all know the reason that no one in the USA would buy it was because they knew it was a stolen car. I saw the FBI records about the two thieves (initials RBK and EAN) who were arrested and then pled guilty (April 29, 1989) to "Interstate Transportation of Stolen Property". How would some innocent purchaser in Brussles know how long or hard it was to get the car off Kleve's property? As far as the engine: It was not in the car when Kleve bought it in 1958. Kleve had a years long arrangement with man who had the engine. That man agreed to hold it for Kleve, and when the car was stolen, he continued to honor that agreement by holding it for Kleve's eventual recovery. Years later, in 2008 I think, after Kleve was dead and buried and could not rebut the claim, Swaters or his partner or agent told this man that Kleve had settled and then they bought the engine from the man. I do not know if the engine was ever in a boat, or another car, and references that a Chevy engine was once in 0384AM are erroneous and refer to another MM car. Good source info on that history would be neat to have. As far as originality and provenance: The factory sold it to direct Kimberly who sold to Kleve, thus this car has had the fewest owners, and is actually quite well documented. The theft was unfortunate, and I am optimistic that it will one day be returned. I have seen many letters from the 70's and 80's from REAL Ferrari lovers (owners of many good cars) who tried to buy from Kleve, repeatedly, year after year, and Kleve simply would never sell. Kleve knew the significance of what he had and knew that there were only four spyders left, and only three in the USA, all of which were accounted for by historians such as Gerald Rousch. The value had run up when Enzo passed, which was before the theft - in fact, it was the reason for the theft IMO, i.e the values had skyrocketed, Kleve would not sell, so someone decided to just steal it. As far as justice, fair play, and honor: Had Kruch and Swaters just returned the stolen Ferrari 0384AM early on, they would not be out of pocket, and this whole sorry episode could have been avoided. Instead, greed ruled and in essence they tried to profit from the theft, hoping that when Kleve died, so would his recovery efforts. I could find zero evidence that Kruch or Swaters acted honorably to return the car to Kleve - ZERO. Instead, I find that the Belgian authorities did something totally at odds by releasing a stolen car THEY identified as Ferrari 0384AM, which then ends up in Swaters hands and he "re-identifies" to 0394AM. *
A shame the cash could not be brought to bear at that time, to reunite the components. But, owning three Ferraris on a working man's salary, I TOTALLY understand how "that" might happen.... What do you make of his posture that European law supports "three sales after the theft" it's become a "good faith" transaction???? Sounds like poppycock.....
Do not know if that is indeed Belgium law, and I think each purchaser in that series must be a bona fides purchaser -- i.e. three thieves can't launder a purchase of stolen goods; none can have bought knowing it was stolen; all must do due diligence, and all must have paid near market price. Regardless, Swaters has sworn under oath that he and Phillipe Lancksweert as partners bought from L'Exception Automobiles in March 1990. That sounds like JS/PL are purchaser number two, if you accept they are all bona fides. I do not accept the bona fides. I have seen the docs, the prices, the strange Belgian authorities actions, the strange renumbering to 0394AM . . . *
Ferrari Classiche said to me that the original engine was purchased in 2008. As Philip L . was no longer a ''partner'' with Swaters on the car - who did the negotiation on the engine ? The owner of the engine was complicated. Was that purchase handled with the same degree of '' concealment '' as Swaters managed along the way with 0394AM-0384AM? Or was it that with Kleve dead, the P.L. partnership desolved, it was ok that the cat was out the bag ? Would be great to see how this engine part of Swater's dealing compared to the hidding of the rest of the ''settlement''. On another engine remark, I saw the stamping of the engine and it had been restamped also- at least the last digits and the A. Would an original stamping on the engine mated to 0384AM be stamped 0384 or 0384AM ?
Over stamp(s) on a 375 engine is not an uncommon practice. Renumbering cars and engine were done by the factory in period. Reference Cavallino 57
I am diving certified and have been diving for over 30 years. Got any GPS coordiniates? LOL. See the neat story about this salvage op. No, it was not me. Bugatti Brescia, owner put it in Swiss lake to evade taxes, had it chained, chain broke, lost for years, divers knew about it, finally recovered. The cold fresh water of course did not deteriorate it like salt water would. Ocean Joe Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
[ I have very abundantly explained and illustrated ... In a final purchase late '80, less than U.S. $ 10,000, this "Bitza" rebuilt from scratch, with a Title 0384AM and a true original engine, will ultimately "worth" 10 million U.S. $ ]....... I read through this guys story , posted in French. Cohen told me a long time ago, ''Creditibility equals Capital'' . If this is the case, this guy is broke. All his theory is riddled with the air of crack pot half truth. Stick to the facts, don't look back, and adios Jack -
What's the bottom line here? Joe are you guys looking/hoping for cash or the return of the car? If you get it back what are you going to do with it? Drive it? Sell it?
Really, the same series as the car in this thread??? Small world.... Where's my mask and flippers??? That's some pretty nasty water, tho.....
