375+ # 0384

It really confuses me that Kleve purchased the car in '58 and essentially KNOWINGLY sat on this very very special car allowing it to rot further and did nothing about/with it. I'm not saying it being stolen was a good thing, but my gosh I wish he would have given it the care it deserved rather than being an aloof owner passing down fabulous offers to what would be good homes. What a world.

 

This is much the same line of thinking as used with the Walter Medlin cars. Although we may think it is a shame and a disservice to the cars it must be remembered that they are that persons property to do as they wish.

Jeff

 

Absolutely agreed. Just sad as hell that someone knowingly keeps what they know to be 'valuable property' in the same place where rats nest. "Do what you want with it, but wow are you freaking serious" type scenario. Think about it. Kleve could have had the car restored on his own, made it for a much more original car, and then really done well as a return on his investment. Nope, let's leave it in the mud for another 40 years.

 

It's like having this knock out bomb shell girlfriend, and you don't use her as the other guys think you should . It's not their girlfriend buddy , so they can't take her away for that reason. Just owning her is enough maybe - who is to say what you must do!

The issue with the 375 Ferrari is that someone ''Stole'' it from Kleeve and Jacques bought it with dirty hands. He knew it was stolen, and also knew who actually owned it and refused to give it back to them . That is playing a dirty game - no matter what your morals are.

Now poor Jacques is gone, like we all will be someday. Jacques left his honor behind which is as immortal and tangable thing as the Ferrari. In my mind a far worst move than leaving the Ferrari in the mud for a few years!

 

Wouldnt they only be entitled to what they started with in the begining? A rusted & battered frame & partial body? It looks like they did not use any of the original body, there was no drivetrain in it when it was stolen? I dont see why they would have to give back the whole car , seeing as it is mostly a replica anyway's ???

 

That's a very pertinent question Jim.

 

Let me guess, CASH ???

 

Jeff - Not only is it a matter of property rights, but the FACT is that guys like Kleve and Medlin were BOTH smart enough to step up to the plate and buy the freakin' cars when no one else would.

The same cars could have been sold for scrap and crushed had they not put up the own money, with the foresight to choose some of the better, rarer examples. At least Kleve and Medlin had an eye for the right car. Kudos, as but for Kleve and Medlin, the cars are are today for guys like us to enjoy.

Many guys tried to buy the Ferrari from Kleve, even in the 70's and 80's, and he simply refused. The offers I saw that he turned down were usually low, and it seemed like the buyers thought they deserved the car but would never pay up. I may post a few of those letter offers.

Having bought a rare Ferrari from a typical finicky Ferrari guy, you simply need to overpay, and wait for the values to climb. Otherwise, you go home empty.

*

 

We of course start out from our "ideal world" view.

The car should be returned to its rightful owner, and any improvements if made by a bad faith purchaser will NOT be reimbursed.

This is because the courts are clear about how stolen property must be handled when it is improved. Good faith purchasers who improved are usually entitled to reimbursement for the buy and the improvements, but not for appreciation.

If not in good faith, you usually give up the purchase price AND any improvements, as to hold otherwise would sanction theft and sanction changes just to make someone pay for the changes.

I have seen the papers, and I can assure you any Belgium inquiry into whether the holder of the car acquired in good faith is a sham and / or a deliberate fraud. For those familiar with what docs have been posted, and the plea bargains from the original thieves, there is one very strong reason (among several) that will show the Belgian inquiry as fatally flawed.

Care to guess?

Hint: FBI records at the time, show the value of the 40% car that Swaters bought, as it sat, by EXPERTS at the time, as around $250,000, and at $1,000,000 - $1,500,000 if restored, in the 1989 - 1990 timeframe.

I may post some FBI records. They read like a novel, and Kleve was like a detective, constantly in touch as Ferrari enthusiasts around the world fed him info, including the too cute and clever change to 0394AM.

The VIN number change is so transparent.

I can't believe those around Swaters will risk his reputation.

When this stuff gets official in court records, it will be too late, and he will be officially credited.

The plan is to drive it to Kleve's grave, say a few words of closure, maybe escorted by a line of Ferraris from the Ferrari club, and then pass it on (via sale) to a new owner.

*

 

Who Is Going To Get This Car?

 

Very true words! Wasn't Kleve offered good amounts for the car along with the somewhat poor amounts? Just curious as I am trying to get inside his head a little to understand. If it were a matter of him just not receiving the offer he knew he could get for it, fine I suppose I get it a bit I guess. However, if he had solid offers I don't get it. Was he waiting for the market to get better? Obviously he wasn't openly trying to move anything so as an outsider looking in I see it as a reclusive and somewhat eccentric owner.

As a side note which is very similar to this, I knew a guy who bought-up vintage French Selmer saxophones from the late 50s and 60s as he knew for sure they would be worth a fortune one day. Sure enough, they are. He had acquired over a hundred of them and planned on selling them upon retirement (whenever that is as he is quite old now). In '97 I witnessed the saddest thing ever. There was a very talented kid at a music store who no doubt deserved one of these horns as he did have a future in what he did. A person had consigned a very nice French Selmer horn at a very low price and this kid's family was able to afford this horn. Well, this guy happened to come in the same day and insisted on buying this horn and scalped the horn from this kid and basically pushed he and his family out of the deal like a hostile corporate take-over (offered a substantial amount more $ of course). This was all so the horn could sit (at least it was in a case and indoors I guess) and "collect value" with the rest of the rotting french masterpieces until he was ready to move them, or not.

 

Don't overlook the fact that even if he gets a great offer, it is his decision to sell or not. Kleve had plans to build a museum for his cars but the years got ahead of him. Had someone offered to build out his dream museum, he may have given them a few cars. That is how it is when you are dealing with a finicky seller. Try too hard to buy, and you will never get it as a finicky seller just holds on tighter. Some just like the attention that offers bring, and never sell no matter what, which is of course their right.

After seeing Karl Kleve's cars that he built as a teen, and then his WWII work on the atomic bomb in the Manhattan Project, and his extensive collection of mostly engineering pinnacle cars, I conclude he is a brilliant eccentric. Incidentally, his secret military orders involved him traveling from Ohio to this brand new town called Los Alamos -- he drove to mom's V-16 Cadillac to get there. That's a classic car guy kinda adventure. His contribution was to the team that worked on the tail fin section as they had to devise a way to slow the descent of the bomb so the air crew had time to fly away to safety.

I see the recovery of Karl Kleve's stolen Ferrari 375 Plus car from Swaters as a matter of restoring some dignity and honor to a situation where a few greedy people took advantage years ago, and it is finally time for some justice. Some say that is why Swaters started the Ohio lawsuit because Swaters knew he had to right a wrong, and he was preparing for his exit from this world. That would be a nice ending with perhaps a mutual sense of dignity and honor, but my phone has yet to ring, and one of his lawyers badgered and implicitly threatened a very well connected witness, so their motivation remains in question.


*

 

Is there anyway the the case in Ohio could result in the car having to be returned to you?

If such a ruling were possible and issued would this ruling be enforcable in Europe where the car now is?

What if anything do you make of the comment in this thread that the car is now owned by the Galleria?

 

It's in Post #409....

"humming a Beach Boys tune...."

Whoever brings the money....

 

That's my thought (as posted earlier) that the Factory Museum will have little interest in the outcome of the USA lawsuit.

I doubt they plan to travel in the USA with the machine anyway....

I guess they could make another one, and send it over......

 

The car is controlled by a Ohio court consent order where Swaters (the owner while Ferrari Classiche and the Museum are his agents) and the Kleve side have agreed to not change, sell, pledge, or move anything. Swaters has represented under oath that he and his daughter own the car 100% that is on display or at Ferrari Classiche. If the Court concludes the car as stolen and the 1999 Settlement Agreement invalid, then yes the car gets returned to Ohio to its rightful owner, with maybe some reimbursements depending on good faith issues as to any improvements (restoration, parts, engine).

I saw the video where a museum curator said that Ferrari owns 0384AM and I simply think he is mistaken. It would be legal anarchy if Ferrari factory or Classiche violated or in any way disrespected the Ohio court's orders, or in fact did hold the car against any order.

If Ferrari has some sort of option to buy then it should have been disclosed by Swaters as a material fact, and it was not. Everyone says Swaters is a gentleman, so surely he would have disclosed that in the Ohio litigation as a matter of honor if not also of duty.


*

 

If JS hadn't filed the suit in Ohio, and I assume become bound by it's decision ?, would you have been able to, assuming a legal victory, get the car back to the US or would an European court not have allowed that?

 

This discussion would not exist if the car were in China, but I would be interested in seeing what a EU court might do about this.

In Europe, a stolen vehicle may be seized at the request of the public prosecutor, as an item of evidence, or at the request of a judicial authority that asks that the vehicle be confiscated or taken off the road. Seizure as such does not constitute a coercive measure in the interest of a victim or victims, although it may later have the effect of such a measure.

A stolen vehicle may also be seized at the request of ANOTHER country for used as evidence in judicial proceedings. In such cases, an official request for mutual assistance in criminal matters is required. Requests from a foreign authority for seizure of a vehicle will not be accepted for the sole purpose of compensating a victim for losses incurred.

So as before, given the local authorities cooperating with a USA request -and I am sure pending their own investigation- it can be done.

 

Jurisdiction over the "person" and over the "thing" are tricky propositions. If suit had been filed in Ohio, it is a question whether long arm jurisdiction would reach Swaters, thus you would depend on his consent to it. Jurisdiction over the "thing" would be easier, since the Ohio title remained in Ohio and was never PROPERLY transferred, then one could get a cease and desist order that would prevent Swaters from ever claiming to own the vehicle 0384AM, while Swaters could claim he bought some parts that were once part of 0384AM.

These ownership issues only arise as worth litigating when the values are high and the cars are famous. Swaters knew he needed papers if he ever wanted to sell the car as 0384AM -- it is no different than fencing a piece of well known stolen art. You simply can't do it out in the open, or do it at anywhere near its real value, plus it can be seized at any point in time. That almost occurred based on what I have seen in estate docs! The car was "whisked away" in a trailer when Interpol arrived at a gathering to seize another car. Again, all those folks who claim Swaters is a gentleman better call his side and tell them they are putting his reputation at grave risk if this gets litigated.

The way the system is supposed to work is that once a car is stolen, and then found in another location, it is SUPPOSED to be returned to the owner's location, and any subsequent purchaser then litigates for his reimbursement of purchase price, usually against whomever sold it to him, but not against the original owner. Most of Europe works that way, and Interpol will acquire the property for disposition by Courts, returning it to America when a Court orders it - European courts generally do respect American courts, and vice versa.

Here, based on what I have seen, it appears that Belgium is sort of a rogue nation with a tiny court system (King's Prosecutor) that was easily snookered (fooled or influenced) by someone with such ability and motive. Courts in America find a lack of good faith when a car of an established value is bought by someone at a 30% discount. Here, the Belgian authorities had a hold on the car known to be stolen while in the dealer's possession (L'Exception Automobile - not a very big or influential dealer) - a dealer who says he paid $4,500 for it. It will be embarrassing to see who conducted that inquiry assuming there ever was one - I conclude it was an orchestrated sham as there is no way to make sense of the dealer paying $4,500 for it while KNOWN to be stolen, then Swaters paying $100,000, BOTH events which are at severe discounts to its true value of $250,000.


Again, it is my considered view that Swaters reputation will end up in shreds if this is litigated any further, without even reaching the renumbering efforts.

 

I just saw your post and review and agree with your assessment, and would expand that losses that are part of the theft end up being resolved with the return of the property.

 

A long held (possibly correct) memory

I seem to recall back in the late 1990's early 2000's there was a scandal published in Motorsport (UK) and elsewhere where someone claimed to have a Ferrari, and I remember it as a 375 Plus and it was inspected by a FISA rep who decided it was the real deal.

The story went the person came to have a rare even serial number 50's racing Ferrari, it was rebuilt in Europe and eventually got a fair bit of publicity as being a long thought lost F-car. Of course they had got the correct documentation from a friendly car inspector (in italy ??) who said this is real even the serial was for a car never built........ Later it was revealed the certifier had received some quantity of money to say it was the real deal.

Could it have been the Favero #0386AM ??

Tim

 

I've met a lot of eccentric collector/hoarders over the years, and have attended more estate sales than I can remember. (Usually consisting of the grown children complaining about how dad would never let them touch the cars, the widow and auctioneer walking away with a handful of cash, and everyone at the sale grumbling about the crazy 'ol bastard that amassed all that stuff...)

There's a lot of theories as to why they continue to hang onto items despite the fact that they'll never restore/use/enjoy them, but it seems like they derive some pleasure from the possession. Somehow that vehicle becomes so familiar to them, that its loss would seem like losing a friend or family member. Most times restoring the car is out of their financial means, other times they don't even realize what it takes to put a car back to pristine condition. Others grew up in the Depression era and simply refuse to let go of anything, be it an empty mason jar or a supercharged Stutz.

My own father has a bit of that condition as well. He's had cars hidden away for years that he won't let me use or restore. For as long as I've been alive, he kept several cars parked on an abandoned property that belonged to my uncle (55 Pontiac Starchief convt and 64 Impala cvt, and others) The uncle is afflicted as well - he's been sitting on an XK120 roadster that's pretty much a total loss by now...

Every year when I was little we'd drive out to the country and inspect them, maybe jack them up a little and slide another block underneath to keep them out of the dirt, and daydream about restoring them someday. People offered to buy them, tracking Dad down through friends and family, but he refused. Eventually someone stole parts from the Impala and set a fire in a building that spread to the Pontiac, melting the front half of the car.

Fast forward to about 5 years ago and zoning demanded the cars be removed, so the remains were sold off for parts and scrap. Both were pretty much rusted in half.
Some locals saw us loading the Pontiac onto a trailer and asked "How'd you finally get that crazy SOB to sell those cars. What a waste!?". Dad, mortified, had to admit that he was in fact the crazy SOB.

Sorry for the long post but maybe you can understand a little better how these owners feel. There's really no answer to the 'why?' question.

 

Finally got through reading this thread - WOW!!! What a story.

Extremely fascinating and I am very curious as to what will happen now.

From having lived in Belgium for six years I can attest to the fact that Belgium is a very corrupt country at all levels. I cannot tell you about many of the things that I saw there, but I wouldnt trust officials worth anything. Every year a vehicle has to go through Controle Technique, a national inspection, when I took vehicles through there they would inevitably fail unless I greased the palms of the guys who were doing the inspection. My cars would fail for no real viable reasons (battery cover missing or wheel lugs not tight enough or missing something that had nothing to do with the operation of the car). But I digress...

At the same time I have known many Belgians who were very nice people I can call my friends.

So, my point is that I have little doubt that by greasing the right palms or having the right connections you could pretty much get anything you like done there. I have heard through sources that only Italy is more corrupt.


My next question would be why Phillipe Lancksweert or Michael Kruch have not been brought up on charges of recieiving and/or selling stolen property??



PDG

 

Ya know I was thinking about people like this and 'what if' scenarios for quite a bit last night. The most obvious 'what if' would be if the car where left in the mud lot with Kleve and the car were never restored (which I am sure it never would have been) and been incinerated beyond any sort of recognition or some sort of natural disaster took it OR if his heirs had no idea what it was and had it scrapped along with the other heaps remaining in the yard. I'm not glad it was stolen, but I am also glad the car was restored and is not in the mud nesting rats. I can't imagine the thoughts going through Kleve's mind had a tornado or fire or city ordinance forcing their movement and it being crushed by accident or whatever taking the car out for good. Very real possibilities and IMO, that car dodged a bullet for a long long time......only to get hit by another kind of bullet

 

+1 on Estate Sale strangeness......

I once toured a grand old Houston home and in the garden shed was every food can LID that they had opened, in the past twenty years..........in a bag....

The Great Depression had that effect I think, on those that lived it....

Sorry for hijack, back to #0384...