My pleasure.. While were at it here are the dyno sheets from DTM power in case anyone was interested.. Stage 1: 405hp kit.. Achieved with head port and dtm power ecu mapping alone.. Price..10,000 pounds. Standard intake and exhaust..and air boxes Stage 2: 435hp kit ..Achieved with head port.. and 3.7 litre stroker crank Remove/refit heads, gasflow £5500.oo add £1000 if engine is in car New crank and rods £6340.oo. Dyno run baseline £500.oo Dyno run modified engine to map and optimise £850.oo Supply and fit DTMPower ECU £2100.oo Total package price £15,290.oo Stage 3: 500hp kit ..Achieved with head port.. and 3.7L stroker and bigger cams As above plus pair of cams at £975 each Total package price £17,240.oo I was seriously thinking of just sending them the heads as being in Australia i could get the Motec stuff done here..This wouldve brought the price down to £5500.oo alone for the head port (i think that includes gaskets.. But then i thought about their claims... 80hp alone from just a head port..!! Heres a transcript of our conversation of the 405hp kit RE: re 355 405bhp package Yes there are a lot of questions. Q:Firstly how is the power made..? A:By improving the inlet airflow volume and speed, by gasflowing the inlet tracts and inlet ports. Q:Are we led to believe believe that with all the F1 technologhy of squeezing out all the possible hp out of an engine that the ferrari engineers missed out on 80hp? still left in their creation? How is this possible? A:Only if you believe all sales and marketing outpourings of motor manufacturers does the improvement seem impossible. However we prefer to base our opinions and sales claims on hard facts and data. If you are in any doubt about the accuracy of the manufacturers information you should test your F355 on a rolling road, which (if correctly calibrated) will show you that the engine makes around 320bhp, and not the larger figure that is claimed. We have tested two F355s, each at two rolling roads and arrived at the same figures. Also if you think that motor manufacturers can afford to use F1 technology in their road cars, think again! How do you think they have the money to go F1 racing in the first place. Also bear in mind that in the late 1980s and 1990s the Ferrari F40 cost price to build was the same as the cost price to build a Fiat Uno at the time. The above i found realy interesting!! But compare prices.. Toda camshaft $5400AUD vs DTM power 1,000pounds. Toda crank $18,250 AUD vs DTM power cranks+rods (not ti)£6340.oo Could we convince Toda to give us the kit alone and then get a guru like Dave or Engine Fixer for the rebuild we could slash these costs? Group buy anyone?? Better still buy a crank and get it made cheaper...? PS the dyno for the stroker kit was for a 355 with much more radical cams than those in the 435hp stroker kit. As such the low down power/tq suferred a bit... But it proves that cams and stoker cranks can be made for our cars..much cheaper than Toda pricing..or michelotto for that matter.. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Anything is possible but the gains shown by those dyno tests vs claimed modifications seem rather unlikely to me. Like you said, 80hp from porting and re-mapping alone? Over 500rwhp with cams? Those are some HUGE gains on an engine already making impressive HP per liter in stock form. EDIT- just realized that a DTW dyno is an engine dyno and not a chassis dyno. Still seems a bit optimistic and I would like to see the stock/baseline runs as a comparison. This quote doesn't help their credibility- "Also bear in mind that in the late 1980s and 1990s the Ferrari F40 cost price to build was the same as the cost price to build a Fiat Uno at the time." I don't even need to go into details. No one is going to convince me this was the same cost to build as an F40- Image Unavailable, Please Login
LOL!!!! I think i just lost control of my sphincters.. As for the baseline dynos.. NONE were supplied..!! They were supposedly done but such a long time ago that they are not available now.. More interesting is the claim that the stock 355 only makes 320hp!! Its so hard to get proven power out of these cars for a reasonable price.. As far as weight loss goes.. heres what ive collected.. Stock Australian delivered 355 bumper approx ive held in my hands.. Surprisingly heavy.. Didnt have a scale but id say approx 20-25kg Challenge front bumper 19 pounds.. Kevlar bumpers custom made..7 pounds front. 5 pounds rear.. cost 4k then add paint..5k! Weight saving dunno ? 20kg?? BANG FOR BUCK $300/kg weight saving.. Exhausts.. Ti is 30% lighter than steel. Ohnishi magic custom made 4:2:1 headers copied from OEM 355 exhaust.. $12,750.00 ETA - TBA (Special Order) **Titanium Ex manifold requires 2mm material called Cupper Titanium and this meterial is very expensive and needs to be special ordered. > Using 1mm Titanium piping will not hold up to the heat and will crack, that's why they suggest going with a stainless manifold Heat Magic Rear Titanium Muffler for Ferrari 355 (Includes Y-Pipe) $7650.00 Now a steel muffler for 355 weighs 25kg.. I dont know what oem headers weigh but the full package id estime to be 15kg lighter!! BANG FOR BUCK $1300/kg of weight saved. Also they CAN NOT provide any Dyno proven gains in HP.. Assuming 100pounds = 10hp (realy 8hp)= .1 sec gain over 1/4 mile you can see its v expensive to make gains either via weight loss or via hp gain (engine modification..) TODA kit: Cost $120k HP gain 120hp: BFB $1000/hp gained Its hard to decipher it all but compare the gains from a proven Nizpro TT conversion.. Package 1: 1) 575flywheel hp (355kW)at wheels (6-psi boost) $42k AUD BFB: $215/hp gain Package 2: 2) 650hp and 400 rwkw (9.5 psi boost) $47kAUD BFB: $174/hp gain And i know someone who will insure this setup...!! Heres the kit in action in a video that hasnt been posted here before... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2ee3VwGja8 regards pk
Oh BTW... Its interesting how TODA uses the Gruppe M exhaust.. But not the Gruppe M intake.. Now i wonder why..?
That is some fun stuff! When there is no budget... anything can be accomplished but at what cost to the wallet and longevity. You can get more air through those ports but how long will a completely flush cut valve guide really last? A 15K crankshaft... Maybe, they have to amortize the cost over 3 units and pray there is a 4th order to see a profit. I have spent 7K quite a number of times building custom billet cranks for race engines, my cost. Figure there is 20 hrs bare MIN. of CAD design and specing time to be added to that part alone. I have had long discussions with my Cam Engineer about building 5 valve performance cams and we have figured out how to do it. You could sell what, 1, 2 sets a year? You would have to take cost and multiply it by 5 to see any chance of a payback on design time alone and you need to build 10 sets in a run. That is a lot of expensive shelf space to tie up None of the numbers surprise me. This isn't just a part manufacturing cost, this is design, manufacture, test, start over again and do it twice more before a finished product is ready for sale, theory and reality rarely agree the first time. They are a "For Profit" company building extremely limited volume components. This is the real cost of building Pro level components / products and offering it to the public. I am well versed on that subject and do not recommend it as a viable business plan to anyone that looks at a bottom line. My only question is regarding longevity and how many hours have these mules seen? A Profitable venture for them...? Highly doubtful!
+1 When I saw the cut back valve guide, I wondered the same thing. I investigated the cam and valve spring route before, my pockets simply weren't deep enough to justify 20K+ worth of valve springs sitting on the shelf, not even knowing if I'd ever sell any.....I stopped at that point and didn't even chase my tail with the cam issue anymore. There is performance to be gained with some of the stuff already out there and just making these things run correctly anyway.....
One seemingly insignificant part.... Yup. Imagine anyone crazy enough to build an entire package for a market of this size, just aint there. Hey, Flyboy tells me you have been keeping some late hours, something about a cat....
My concern with any porting is that while I may flow more I can at the same time loose velocity. Better invest in a wet flow bench to see the mystery unfold before your eyes. Backside of the intake valve and seat when done with proper angles can work a little magic without hogging out aluminum chuncks especially on the 355 which has a nice straight shot at the intake and great velocity....this under torqued engine would be a handful to drive on the street with even less velocity at lower rpm's....best buy bulk quanties of clutch discs and marry a girl that does flywheel resurfacing. What is the purpose of greater flow at the head when the upstream intake can't flow at that rate? Wave tuning is sooo off that it is some times better just to leave it alone unless you understand the 355's engine dynamics. Trimming the intake valve guide??? Did it all the time on a RACE engine but you won't believe the heat build up that the shortened guide has to contend with(not to mention the valve proper)...the newer PM guides can be formulated to handle this much better than the bronze ones and maybe a black nitride coating on the valve stem would be of great benefit. Again, this is great for a RACE engine, but if you can't afford to properly maintain the stock engine you won't last longer than an ice cube in a blast furnace with this setup. Driveability and longevity is what you need more than a few extra hp that can turn your dream into a financial nightmare.
Well that settles it... 2011 a new year.. And every new year has its resolutions.... You know that moment when time stands still and everything else fades into insignificance.... well that time has come... Ive thought about it long and hard and i keep coming back to the same point... After all theres only one life... and after that a big black void... My resolution............. ????? Ditch my stock 355 and become a Daddy.. !!! Ill think ill give birth to twins.. TWIN TURBOS that is...!! Image Unavailable, Please Login
Just keep in mind that while the car will obviously be much faster with twin turbos it will greatly change the attitude of the car. For example, I twin turbo'd my 07 Z06. When it was stock and naturally aspirated I could drive it really aggressively, power around corners, very flickable/etc. After the turbos it was ridiculously fast in a straight line but not as much fun in the corners as it was much harder to modulate the power. Personally I would keep the 355 naturally aspirated as I think it suits the car well.
Yeah....that 4 balled tomcat caused me one hell of a hangover. We had fun though....I was even told by a fat chick that I was "the hottest MF in the whole bar." Not much of an ego boost when it's coming from Petunia Pig's twin sister. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Awww!! Now youve gone and spoiled all the fun.. Seriously... I hear you brother and understand what you are saying.. To tell the truth YOU ARE RIGHT..!! But i must admit i never realy push the car around corners HARD..only in a straight line Italian exotics... so unforgiving... you can push them nearly to the limit but once you cross that line..you lose it...and theyre so hard to recover.. Ive done some straightforward things in my 355 and the response was frightening.. Lag time in steering.. oversteer Just the other day i nailed it on the entry onto the freeway and it hit a small undulation on the road and the car skipped and phase shifted to the right about a foot.. Maybe im not skilled enough driver but as regards out of the box handling the 355 is good but not jap car standards.. The 355 is realy like a horse... Sometimes it just decides to do what it wants to rather than what you want it to...Its scary but thats the FUN Contrast this to a Subaru.. which realy inspires confidence.. just point and shoot. But too predictable for my liking In my other front engine cars i can do a limitless fishtails down the road with just my palm on the steering wheel.. Try doing this in the 355!! Apparently Shane Warne was doing the very same thing in his 355 and he wrapped it around a pole in front of his buddies And if power is a problem then i might as well chuck my 800hp Dodge Cherger in the rubbish too.. Anyway it would be good to blow away a few ricers..and im only getting the 462rwhp kit.. Stop it youre scaring me now!! regards pk
Why do you think I told the guy that asked about my rather simple 328 motor it would cost about what the car was worth? Then there is the matter of the ported heads. You and I both saw how many 95 heads had coolant oozing into the intake tract. They didn't redesign the 96 heads for nothing. Those castings are paper thin. And those pistons they are using. 130 AV gas is hard to find even at the airport. People seem to forget they bought a Ferrari because it already has all that stuff. It's like we used to say in competition rifle shooting. 5 grand spent on practice will do a lot more good than 5 grand spent on a rifle.
I have 405 crank HP and race scca and won the regional class title in my z06. I still cannot effectively use All my 405 HP. While these are great excercises they make no sense in a streetcar.
You need to talk to Jetfixer...he has a Lingenfelter Z06 now with their 660 HP package. His actually made more, with MSD coils and a complete Billy Boat exhaust system. The goofy a$$ also put coil overs on it too....and it's his daily driver!!! Computer controlled and idles more radical than my old drag car..... Here is his car on the chassis dyno:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epsjGELN1jg
Looking at the dyno graph, there is a dip in the 6500 RPM range that should be in the 55-5800 RPM range for a normal F355. This shows that some major part in either the intake or exhaust has been changed. A 21"-22" 42mm 4-1 header would have a dip right there, but it is possible to put a dip there by changing the air box volume or altering the size of the intake pipes leading to the airbox. Thus, dyno graph accurately represents that engine, however it is unlikely to be bone stock other than the mentioned parts. Also based on the dyno graph, this is an engine begging for the rest of the components to withstand 9500 RPM redline With upward tilt to the high end of the TQ curve is representative of either a) throwing too much cam at the engine (that is peak TQ is at the same RPMs as peak HP), or b) not having a high enough RedLine to use the cam and airflow that the engine has. Both engines could use a bit more work on the dyno to quell the dips in the mid-range power cures with more/less gas or timing.
Well ive had further correspondance from Toda.. Apparently the kit is for sale by itself..!! And you can choose your own engine builder.. The first spec 436hp requires no ECU upgrade. The other 2 do not.. There is also a package discount available for multiple orders.. heres a transcript of their reply.. Regarding purchasing the parts as individual items, All parts listed are available for sale as individual items that you can take to the engine builder of your choice to have fitted. These can be purchased as 1 off items or a large number of parts (eg: cams, springs, stroker kit etc) where a package price discount would be applied. Please be mindful that the reworking of the engine bearings is critical & requires some experience. To expand on this, basically in standard form the F129B cylinder block is not designed for power outputs exceeding 400hp. The TODA bearings for the stroker kit require the cylinder to be align honed & the crank bearing journals to be linished/micro polished to size to achieve the correct bearing clearance. The TODA engine bearings are slightly thicker than standard & material must be removed to accommodate them. With the above in mind, we will supply you with whatever parts you may require & you can take them to the engine builder of your choice. All parts we supply include comprehensive English instructions with full after sales tech support should any issues arise or your engine builder has any questions. Now all we need is an engine builder!!! and a few takers... Well I for one am willing to take a shot and buy the first kit... And i dont care if the engine builder copies the toda design and markets the product for all to benefit.. Come on Dave Helms/Engine fixer you know you want to do this...!! And the rest of you... You also want to do this... Help me out guys lets convince them... for the benifit of us all...
and what exactly does it contain, and what is the anticipated improvement in HP? Stage 1: 405hp kit.. Achieved with head port and dtm power ecu mapping alone.. Price..10,000 pounds. Standard intake and exhaust..and air boxes
Yup !!! I tried to tell you guys. There is no way there going to make 80,000 grand off f355 engines. They have to sell parts off the kit. When they started to picture each part I kinda figured they were going to part out the kit which is a little better because the price will be cheaper then them building them. Sending it to toda is like sending it to a f1 team to have your engine built which is cool if you have the green beans. Glad you found out for us now I'm just waiting for dyno viz of the dyno to be posted on toda's facebook page.
Go ahead and buy that stuff and send my way! I'd love to have an opportunity to hot rod one of these things more than we've done already. I'm mostly curious about the cams and adjustable gears, how much different they are from stock. There has to be some kind of trade off to be gaining horsepower from the cams - - loss of low and mid range torque. The pistons and crank are just basic hot rod stuff. In fact, my piston design would be simple to modify for a stroker combo. And I have no interest at all in copying the design, too much investment for too little return - you'd have to have some really deep pockets to invest in that stuff and be willing to sit on it until IF and WHEN somebody would want to buy it. I could call up my crank maker right now and give them the specs I needed and I'd have one before spring, but I don't need a 30 lb paperweight on my desk. I will have the mounting points for my engine dyno fabbed up this weekend for 355 engines. As soon as I do and verify a few measurements, my coupler is going to go out to Dr. Frankenstein for him to work on. Then we'll have the ball rolling to start to see what gives actual gains, and what is smoke and mirrors.
Super NEWS, on that engine dyno. I remember you posting that you were going to have some cool stuff ready soon for the f355 anything yet, or are you still working on it.
And... Pro's simply do not do that out of respect for those that were willing to take that leap in the first place. That was a money sucking looser when it was still on paper, a monster black hole once the cutting began. Folks must remember, there is NO FREE RIDE, you cant get something for nothing. As in any redesign of a Ferrari system.... there is a price to be paid be it in torque, mid range, longevity, reliability, emissions,..... something has to be given away to get. Its a very fine balancing act to find power where the downside is limited. Speaking for myself, I hope Toda found some (I highly respect efforts such as this and they have my highest compliments) but I will believe it when I feel it and anything short of 3000 ROAD miles amounts to a system still in Beta in my book. I am heading a different direction knowing it is a No Sale, money loosing effort and only for myself. Brian stated it best in one of these threads.... the engine will cost far more than the car is worth and the minute it becomes a For Sale Package you own the liability for decades. Few have the guts to write a check the size that is required for a Ferrari Race Engine that has zero warranty.....once the pin is pulled and the start button pushed it is too late and its only a matter of when it will blow, not 'if'. Those ugly little facts that defies logic don't make it any less intriguing and are not standing in my way. Gary's flow bench and dyno will get a good work out very soon.
No free ride indeed.... I appreciate everything that both Dave and Gary are saying here. I believe that this advice comes from 2 gentlemen who's opinion we all respect and it comes from people who would rather say the truth in the matter, rather than so many other cowboys in the industry who dont give a stuff about the outcome but are more willing to feed a customer sugar coated stories just to line their own pockets... But this is what im having trouble understanding.. and ask this question in the hope that others will chime in to help my ignorance.. ive had many engines in my life.. The first was a 265 hemi 6 cylinder (nominal bhp200) this engine was built for me a long time ago.. It wasnt stroked but through head work and cam this engine made close to 350bhp. The e49 charger at the time made 320bhp (built by factory) none of these engines grenaded.. Ive had a turbo 225 slant six engine that i built myself. Stock it made 160bhp at the engine. With Turbo we got 250rwhp.. NO other changes at all.. It did not grenade but took a lot of sorting. A hemi 572 all aluminium engine... Making 800hp. hydraulic cam 10:1 comp.. still no grenade.. And of course the 348 in stock trim (no stroking)under michelotto was very capable of 400 plus hp! with induction +- cams.. My hope with the 355 was that while understanding that its REVS that kills a NA engine was to achieve the same reliability as a stock 355 engine has just with bigger cubes !! Here in Aus we have very powerfull fuels.. They have just released E85 fuel here.. 85% ethanol Octane raing 112!! I know people who who are putting this stuff in their cars and getting 50hp on tuning alone.. So taking this same example with the 355.. If the Toda crank alone is utilised in say just a stock engine (assuming its built properly) with just a small bump in compression 12:1 (1st stage wont that reliability be transferable to this engine in the same manner? Ie build a 355 like the first level kit that Toda are offering UME SPEC 436hp engine done with crank stroke alone..but with 12:1 comp.. Surely this combo wont grenade.. if built properly.. This would pobably get about 450-460 hp but with the UME reliability I know from talking to people at Toda that the Bearing clearance and Cam tensioners are the weak link in these kits..esp with Hp levels above 400hp thats why they prefer to build them in house.. But if this is done right then why should the engine grenade? From what everyone is saying here i get the impression that these kits are unreliable!! Ie you need to tear them down regularly which maybe ok if you have a toda racing team and big pockets to help you... but thats not what we want in our street cars.. Ive spoken to others who just pump 50-75 hp N20 shot in their NA engine alone and get the same reliability and their engine doesnt grenade.. For that matter the twin turbo kit has proven big hp levels are achievable with this engine.. 14psi 11:1 comp.. No grenade!! Of course forced induction is much kinder to engines than achieving this through NA means,, ie bigger stroke comp cams etc.. But surely a balance can be achieved whereby we get an extra 75 to 100 hp these engines without sacrificing their reliability via the use of a stroker crank to bump up the cubes alone.. Sure i can go down the Twin turbo route.. Its proven HP and reliability..A no brainer realy just hand over 40k But i prefer the NA sound.. I can do it with 50-75 hp shot of nitrous standing on my head.. again proven and reliable..Stock engine No ecu change. I can do it with Nitrous and motec.. 100-150 hp shot..again a stock motor..Esp with the new 112 octane fuel So why cant i have this same HP (approx 450hp) with the toda crank and a small bump in compression alone..? regards pk
