Where is the 400/412 Market REALLY at?

Hi Howard - Well said but I was caught by your statement that your cabriolet is a "factory cabriolet". I didn't realize that there were any factory cabs, I thought all were conversions by outside firms, such as Straman. Do you have any information on how many factory cabs were made, how they were made (e.g. shipped to Scaglietti or done by Pininfarina) how you can tell if one is a factory cab and, of course, a listing of factory cab serial numbers?

Sorry for the thread hijack but this is new information to me and highly interesting to learn.

Oh, and Happy New Year everyone! May 2011 be a year of fantastic 400 serieis ownership or the acquisition of one for you.

 

$15k for a POS.
$30-35k for a nice car
$40k for a fantastic car.

 

The problem is it can take $60k to get a $40k car. From an economic point it makes no sense to ever get one of these cars. If you can't accept that then buy something else.

 

hey Jim,

just curious, what would it take to get you to part with your car ?

more importantly though, all the best to you and yours for '11...and please send my best to your Mom and Jim sr.

brettski

 

Economic sense and 400 ownership is an oxymoron! Buy one because you love them, be prepared to spend a fair bit and enjoy driving it.

Happy New Year to my 400ing chums!

Aidan

 

So as to not single out these cars, Ferrari ownership and economic sense is an oxymoron!!!

 

As someone who has willingly, knowingly, stepped into a new Audi - twice:
You just described the guaranteed result of buying any new, rolling computer.

Correction: You just described the guaranteed 1st year result of buying any new, rolling computer, and it continues diving from there.
At least with an older car, the dollar "value" is already established.
The feel, smells, and experience, however, keep paying dividends.

 

What does it take to part with your car ?

That is an interesting question and probably if answered honestly the best priceguide for good cars. Not just for one of us but all of us. Could we set up a poll with price bands.

As i am from Europe it would be great if it was possible for both dollar and euro value.
Now we may not all want to publish it so maybe we could split the cars in Good condition and showroom. Maybe also split manual and auto.

Sorry if i am making this to complicated. Willing to build a small database and publish results without names if you want to PM me all.

I have a 412 so not looking to buy one.

To start it of. I would have sold mine for 37.500 Euro. It is manual 412 which is in fully maintained original condition with new TRX and 16" Rims full history and 60.000 miles.

Having settled with the idea of the 412 and 360 spider both blue matching nicely this is not an attempt to sell it.

Interesting to see whether prices in Europe and US are much different and specially what we as owners feel the true value of these cars is.

Can we set up a poll ? does anyone know how that works ?

 

I suspect most would actually change hands in that $15-$30k range between your POS and "nice".
The crappy ones, publicly and perpetually for sale at used Hyundai prices, are what hurts the market. Anything less than perfect gets lumped in with that flotsam.

 

As long it is at Equus pricing and not Elantra pricing, it's okay...

 

You have to be right Ross. The beat ones effect perception of value.

 

What hurts the market is lack of demand and the process of substitution. There are lots of very cool cars you can buy with $15,000-$30,000 that offer a lot of bang for the buck. Demand is also decreased by lack of bank financing and the unavailability of home equity loans which puts the whole classic car market in a cash only market which removes the younger buyers. These younger buyers do not mind putting wrench equity into a project and do not have $20,000 cash for a hobby purchase. The last 10 years many a HELO was used to buy classic cars. Older buyers over 50 typically are tired of working on cars and want turn key cars.

 

Good day Full_Garage,

I do not know if you found this car in your travels, as the ad was just posted today with minimal info and no chassis number...

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/2154628713.html

Anyway, I thought that it might be of interest.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Sam- Popped up on Craigs last week-

I am considering either 400i manual or 412 auto- not interested in a Series II auto at this time-

Driving a few cars this week... we'll see.

 

My contribution from Europe regarding the present value of the 412i (5-speed):

This week I paid EUR 28,000, being USD 36,400 at the moment. The state of the car is "nice", having run 75,000 km or 47,000 miles.

Having followed 400 and 412 (both 5-speed) prices in the last year, this is quite a low price for a car in this condition. They tend to have asking prices of USD 10,000 to USD 30,000 higher. In Switzerland there were only two 412i 5-speeds for sale last week, both priced over SFR 90,000 (USD 92,500), being sold by Ferrari dealers. One was sold, so only one is left for sale.

Ben

 

Thanks Ben and congrats on your car.

 

Good day Full_Garage,

Gotcha... You are definitely more on top of these than I am, but I was unsure if you saw this black one... Now that I know what your criteria is, I will only post anything that meets this.

Cheers,

Sam

 

Fairly nice car with California emissions certification and less than 20,000 miles on the clock. Sale was in November of 2007.

Good points: Ran very well, five speed stick, fairly new clutch, presentable silver paint and black/red interior (I had the dash recovered), no under body rust, wheels were very nice with no curb rash, good tires. All gauges worked.

Bad points: Exhaust needed some professional work (cobbled up from stock plus an aftermarket that didn't fit very well); one rust spot above windshield on passenger side that probably indicated a need for removing windshield & chrome trim for a repair, followed by a repaint, front/back A/C was all there, but did not work, even after evacuation and recharge.

This was a real sale, private party to private party. Did it to move on to a 308 GTB and away from a car where the repair/maintenance cost could quickly equal what the car was worth. Do miss the roar and thrust from that great big V-12, though.

Hope this helps.

 

The answer is always 'what is the car worth to you?'. You're not a dealer trying to turn a buck. If you're an enthusiast you'll pay what you need to procure the car you want. The price becomes irrelevant until you want to sell it and a lot can happen between now and then.

As an enthusiast does it really matter if the car is 5 - 10k more than some blue book value? If you get the car you really want in the condition you want that's all that counts.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Well said, plus 1.
This should be "mad money"

 

This thread reminds me of a chat I had many years ago.
When I was much younger and talking with a collector who was the age I am now, he told me something which has indeed come to pass.
Buy a good restored car and pay top dollar if need be, because you never really pay too much you just pay too soon.
It was true in 1980 and it's true today.

 

I have to agree with a previous poster that you have to by the car you like, not what you think might increase in value etc. You have to enjoy the car! As for knowing the right questions to ask, ask owners, repair shops etc for what to look out for.

I have a 1984 400i, it runs quite nicely but like all old cars you have to stay on top of things.
I've thought about selling it (life is too busy these recent years), and when I looked around it seemed like the junky ones were 15-25k, really nice ones in the range 30-40k. Not enough published sale prices to really know what is right on the mark.

http://picasaweb.google.com/ross.koningstein/Ferrari400i?authkey=Gv1sRgCO7G-PCezo69AQ&feat=directlink

 

My 1985 400i 5 speed with only 27,000 miles will be sold at Atlantic City auto auction on Saturday February 19 around 3:00. If interested, photos and comprehensive description are at http://acclassiccars.com/listing/detail.asp?Key=688 - it is lot #301. I live in a suburb of Philly. My reserve is $38,000 - if interested, I would sell-it for that. Rick

 

Wow like FIVE guys joined Ferrarichat today just to opine on this?? Amazing!!


Decisions made, offers presented...news soon.

 

By the way- SWEET car! Is that Chiaro? $38K is a STEAL for this car- but as you know the market right now is rebounding from the big "D" of 2008, and the low end (Mondials, 400 series, older TRs) is still playing catchup- Best of luck!

Anybody could have purchased Craig Brodys car- which is an 86 412 with 5 speed in Mintish shape for $45K- and it's been for sale for a couple of years.