458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

+1. Very well said! LOL

 

+2 . Hilarious!

 

I can't get past the McLaren looks. Car is real bland...

 

Having seen the McLaren in person, I just can't get over the looks either. It kinda looks like something out of the CARS movie, now that is just my opinion and if you like the looks then more power to you, go get one. I don't think there will be a big long line

I guess I also don't really understand the point of owning a McLaren. Are you going to join the MCA, McLaren Club of America and go on rallys and track days. Are you going to race your McClaren in the Challenge Series. Is your MP4-12C going to sit in your collection of other classic McClarens or are you going to go to MCA events and join thousands of other McLaren owners to celebrate your car and its mystique. Are you going to take your MP4-12C, I am sorry but not only is the design lame they couldn't even come up with a cool name for the car, that should tell you something right there.

Are you going to go to the annual National Meet and run your McLaren on the worlds greatest race tracks and then put your car in the national concours and win an award?
I sorry but I really don't think so.

I guess the point is for those that get the passion and comradery that a Ferrari imparts, there is no comparison to the McClaren.

I mean anyone can build a car that is lighter, faster, with more hp that a Ferrari, but the passion thing that a true Ferrista has, that my friends is hard to do.

If you are truely in too Ferraris then that is it. You have a whole other set of reasons, passion, enthusiasm that really doesn't click with the McClaren. But hey, whatever floats your boat and if you want a MP4-whatever, then go drive it and enjoy yourself, but trying to compare it to an Italia, or a 599 GTO or any Ferrari model is really pointless.

But given that you are either in to Ferraris or not and that you want to join thousands of other Ferrari owners in celebrating the marque, well then what's the point of the McLaren?

Sorry, sometimes these threads just seem pointless, rant over

 

You seem intelligent enough to recognize that all those aspects of the "Ferrari Ownership Experience" you just described that are lacking for future McLaren owners have evolved over time from nothing.

Given this age of information and social networking I'd argue a lot of those gaps will be filled faster than you might imagine.

>8^)
ER

 

No need to apologize. But, I wouldn't call that a rant - I'd call it a stream of ridiculousness. Especially the second paragraph. Man, fchat never ceases to amaze.

 

Cool-Aid overdose.

 

If I remember correctly the thread was titled, 458 vs McClaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

My previous post was just that, my thoughts.

My thoughts after seeing the car, was the looks are very lacking and virtually everyone at the showing agreed, the looks were definitely weak. I said to each his own but for me I have no desire or affinity to ugly. And I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I just don't like the looks of the MP4whatever. Everything I acquire has to pass a beauty test or for me there is no point. That's motorcycles, cars, Hifi, clothes, whatever, so what's the point with the McLaren? I am just asking. I for one can not get over the looks and I am not alone.

And I am not sure what part of paragraph two you thought was untrue to the point of a stream of ridiculousness. I have actually done all those things with my F-cars, and my point is right now, today, you can't do those same things with the McLaren. When the thread says 458 vs McLaren MP4-12C, well I hadn't seen anyone bring up the point of what you can do with one that you can't do with the other. Somehow that seemed as fair to me as comparing a car that is in the wild and one that is not

So I was asking, what do you plan to do with your new MP4whatever? Is it your daily driver, well then what all that saved weight will go to waste. Are you goint to exclusively track it? That's cool, where are you going to track it? I am just asking

What I find is really ridiculous is the fact that not one person on this thread owns a MP4whatever, yet there are all kinds of comparisons going on with the 458 Italia. Come on, you gotta admit that is just a little bit funny and to me a bit boring

As for the rest of it, how does what I do with my Ferrari, along with thousands of other Ferrari owners whenever and where ever we get together become ridiculous? It took 49 years for the FCA to get where it is today, maybe McLaren will get there some day, maybe even sooner than it took the FCA but today they are not in the game, they don't even have a game.

And you really should not me amazed, afterall it's Fchat not Mchat

 

Street&Track is spot on.

The "MP4whatever" (I like that btw..lol) is not on my wish list either and what Street&Track is referring to is simply; passion and the MP4whatever does not have it or likely to achieve it anytime soon or faster due to "social networking" or the internet.

 

I think it looks sweet, actually.
It resembles the Porsche Carrera GT in a few key ways, if that tells you anything.

As for VS? Money talks..

 

Street and Track has a point.

If building a small, lightweight, ultra high performance car were the most important factor in deciding which super car to buy, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Lotus would have gone out of business when the Ariel Atom was created.

It goes faster than any at half the cost -- including the McLaren.

 

The McLaren is no beauty queen but it's no dog either. They have gain alot of praises and respect from their first car. On a F Chat forum, the majority would never choose a McLaren over a 458. However, there should be a minority who would like to own both of them, or change their 458 for a McLaren. I have a 458 and have already registered my interest in a McLaren.

 

I don't think anyone here is calling it a dog. But, I do think the Mc12 is a bit a nitch car in the super car world. Some want superior numbers and to be "different". Some want aesthetics and history.

There is no single solution to the super car. But, I think our point is that just because a car goes faster doesn't automatically mean it will sell better or even well enough to survive in the market.

The biggest category of dead new cars that tried to enter the market are failed super cars.

 

Yea... but the Ariel Atom is more akin to a motorbike than a car in that you're completely open to the elements and as vulnerable as a biker in a collision. I don't think the Atom detracts from the sales of enclosed sportscars - they aren't really comparable.

If it had a solid roof and windows then it would probably be a much more serious contender.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

I was lucky enough to have registered my interest very early, guaranteed a build in the first 100 cars. Did a factory tour in September, saw the car in the flesh, looked at the preproduction cars being built. Cars were started and revved for sound comparison. Thorough run through on all the specs, spent an hour sat in and looking round the bright orange show car. Result - order cancelled! Just didn't do it for me. I'm sure the car will drive brilliantly, be rare for a while etc, but just didn't excite. I took a car mad friend with me, same thoughts as me. On the visit that day were approx 30 people, at least half felt disappointed. I expect they left their orders in as I'm sure no chance of loosing money and as I say I'm sure the drive will be astonishing. Attention to detail was superb, factory is unbelievable.

 

Then I'll bring up the Koenigsegg or the Zonda or the Spyker or the Ford GT or the Saleen S7 or the Ascari or the Cizetta or the Jag 220 or the Vector W8 or the Ultimate Aero or....

My point: Just making a faster car or a more technically superior car does not mean it will be successful in the US marketplace.

 

You obviously had a good look at it, so what was it that made you cancel your order?

 

Your argument on the Atom was that it out-performs Ferrari at a fraction of the price. I took that to mean price was a significant factor in the decision. The enclosed cars you're mentioning now cost in the same ballpark, and if you're paying CCX/Zonda/Spyker/A10/S7/220/W8/Ultimate Aero money then you're not going to spend it on an upstart brand in the supercar world. Most will want a brand with heritage, notoriety/fame, and a secure future.

Koenigsegg, Zonda and Ascari are relatively new to the game and don't have a proven history of survival. Vector didn't survive. Jaguar doesn't make any modern supercars so aren't really "in the game" any more. Shelby Super Cars seems a very small outfit and, again, that doesn't help with buyer confidence. Spyker disappeared for absolutely ages and has been resurrected - same name, different company. Saleen is really more of a tuner of everyday sportscars than a supercar manufacturer and the end-effect is that it looks like a 'normal' car with a bunch of boy-racer crap glued all over it. It might drive nicely, but I've yet to be impressed by the beauty of a Saleen.

Companies as large and long-lived as Lamborghini and Ferrari have an advantage in that they're established supercar manufacturers that have a history of creating beautiful supercars. They seem safe in that customers feel more confident that their cars aren't going to plummet in value when the company goes under, ending their warranties early, making spare parts availability even more difficult, and end up driving around with the badges of a failed company on their dream car.

And there's the intangible magic of the badge, not just for it's "showing off" ability, but for that eerie feeling when you see it that the car you're looking at is a part of automotive history. Do you really get the same feeling looking a Koenigsegg, Pagani, or Ascari?

Due to the racing heritage against Ferrari, I would get that feeling looking at a Ford badge on a GT - but only on the GT. I don't get that same sense looking at it on my parents' truck.

Ferrari don't need to always build the best technological/performance car, but they need to consistently be near the top of the heap to maintain their reputation.

McLaren has the racing history and has the McLaren F1 road car... they're famous for both and they look set up to be in the game seriously and long-term. I think they'll do ok.

All the best,
Andrew.

PS:
Had to leave Cizetta out of my debate, as I've no idea what it is.

 

Andrew: Here is my point.

Many supporters of the Mc12 state that it's going to be successful in the US market because of the following;

1) it out performs Ferrari.

Problem: A lot of cars out perform Ferrari and Ferrari still outsells them

2) it has better technology (CF tub, 600 Hp turbo motor, etc).

Problem: A lot of cars have better technology and Ferrari still outsells them

3) McLaren isn't like other small manufacturers -- it has resources behind it.

Problem: Ford, Toyota, and other large companies have backing and their cars have died off.

4) McLaren already made a super car -- the F1.

Problem: Well, the MC-12 is no F1. Not even close in it's uniqueness or exclusivity or amazing performance for it's time. Going 0.5 sec or even 1 faster to 60 than a 458 isn't going to sway a lot of buyers given the speed limit in most cities is still 45 mph.

5) It will be more exclusive than a Ferrari.

Problem: A lot of supercars are more exclusive than Ferrari and still Ferrari's sell.

6) McLaren's racing history and legend will sustain it.

Problem: A lot of companies have excellent racing history and still their super cars die eventually.


All of these are FACTS. To say that just because the Mc12 is a better mousetrap and therefore will be succesful in the long run goes against history. Can it do it? Sure. Will it do it --- that's what's in dispute.