458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

I agree, replacing the cats on an MP4 would be extraordinarily expensive, although I must admit I never knew this was a problem for turbo cars. I've had a number of Impreza turbos (both modified and unmodded) with over 100k miles on the clock and never had cat issues.

 

The more I see pictures of the FF the more I'm coming around to liking it.

Is it just me, but I actually prefer the back over the front of the car?!

 

Look's like I may have lead this train towards a derailment.

Back on track, gents! *whip sound*

As per the title subject, I think the lack of interior "design" will be a downfall for McLaren, where Ferrari have obviously thought a bit more about the aesthetics.

The McLaren's whole package seems a bit cold. I don't want to dump the Italian cliche wagon on the thread, but there's very little in the way of passion with this car.

It's like Ron Dennis' head was made into a sports car: brilliant, but not a place you'd want to be strapped into.

 

True, although the iPad is a pretty soulless object with lots of technical trickery and yet demand is massive. Ok so an odd analogy but I'd be willing to bet McLaren sells every single model it builds.

 

Frickin hilarious.

 

I like the 12C's interior much better than the 458's. Cleaner, less fussy and when I sat in it, everything fell readily to hand. When you combine it with the great foreward visibility, it feels just about perfect to me. By comparison, I feel that the Italia's interior is a bit tacky with the AC vents and various things. It looks like it will feel outdated quickly to me.

 

Why would you not buy a Lotus sedan, no matter how great it is? I mean, if it was the best product available on the market and the price was competitive? I'm not picking a fight, just wondering why such a strong statement.

 

p.s. is there a written review from Automobilrevue somewhere? or just this stat.

 

It's not online. Just print edition. Somebody on rennteam read it and passed it on. Yes, it's a rumor of a rumor.

 

I don't know. I liked the interior, but thought Italia's quality was better. The switches for performance modes were really poor, for example. They said it would be fixed by production. The carpets were a bit low rent, too, plus the overall space was definitely tighter. On the other hand, Italia's confusion of buttons and screens was very unintuitive. I liked Macca's layout much more.

 

For sure, they still have some tightening to do before launch. I understand that even the cars that the press drove in Portugal did not have finalized interiors, as far as fit and finish. Maybe they left out 300 lbs of carpeting and that is why the claimed performance is so high!

 

By now, it's the only possible explanation

 

I've thought a little more about these crazy stats being thrown around. If they are true, or even close to it, it may have more to do with aero drag than anything else.

We know that McLaren has gone to great lengths to minimize the frontal area and also focused on getting air into and out of the car. Plus, the active aero probably means they can get away with less overall downforce from the fenders and the rest of the body. I don't know any drag figures, but depending on the extent to which they succeeded, it could explain a lot. We tend to focus on power/weight ration and ask "how can this be?" when comparing to similar cars. But I think aero is playing a bigger role.

 

I think a lot of the performance can be explained by conventional sources-- Power, weight, tires, weight distribution, CoG. By that I mean, what kind of performance could Porsche get out of a GT2RS if it were simply mid-engined? For the areas where the 12C would probably outperform even a mid-engined RS, my own hunch is that the 12C's performance comes from better optimizing the tires' contact patches through the suspension's dynamic range, which was the Nissan GTR's way to performance as well. I also think that Mclaren/Menard/Mahle/Ricardo have probably done a better turbo engine than Porsche, or anyone, has ever done. The torque comes in so low, and stays there for so long, it just has incredible mid-range speed. As far as track work, that air brake would be a big help. I don't believe the Nurburgring has a lot of heavy braking, but it's got to be worth a few seconds in a couple of corners, and many tenths per corner in slower stuff.

 

Those quotes here confirm your point:

"...It has allowed us to reduce frontal area, thus reducing drag and improving CO2 emissions down to 279g/km..."

BUT, for all those crazy lap times, it also has to have a ton of downforce. We already know that it's COG is much lower than it competition, which will help quite a bit with high-speed corners, but the downforce has to be there to get 7 mins at the 'ring.

 

Actually, I read somewhere that McLaren says that the aibrake is worth... 10 sec at the ring. And yes, there is a couple of very hard braking zones.

By the by, I think the air brake is a very good idea. Mu scud really starts moving around under very hard braking from big speeds. I always thought it would be neat if something could nail the back of the car better to the road and here we go.

 

First CHarris`s rant and now this, a concentrated BS attack on Ferrari by the mighty ??? lions

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/263920/marussia_b1.html

 

Difference is you have over 100k on those cars. Most exotics are not driven anywhere close to that kind of mileage. They sit in garages most of the week, and all winter long. My Dad's 1987 911 Turbo still has only 21k miles on it.

 

Yikes. Do others agree that the 12C's value will depreciate like a stone. I've heard one Ferrari dealer say the 12C would depreciate by 50% the first year. Who wants to pay $260k for a car that'll be worth $130 a year later? Is this a scare tactic to keep interested parties from buying the 12C, or is this realistic?

 

It seems as though your Ferrari dealer has a vested interest in the 12C depreciating. If enough people think it's going to massively depreciate then perhaps it will massively depreciate and even struggle to sell for MSRP. Sounds a bit like a Ferrari propaganda tactic to me.

In any case, I don't really see how one can be expected to accurately predict the resale value of a car that nobody has even taken delivery of yet.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Nobody really knows, but from my dealings with Ferrari and McLaren dealers (under the same ownership), It seems to me that the interest in McLaren is relatively much stronger than in Italia.

 

"I've heard one Ferrari dealer say the 12C would depreciate by 50% the first year."

Ask him how Scuderia and 430 prices are doing. Times have changed. Let's see where the 458 is in a year.

 

+1000%.

I tired of the clown(s) several days ago. It seemed simply a waste of time to continue to try to discuss exactly the points you've been making to these MacMutts.

Hopefully he'll get his very, very soon

But no matter, thanks sincerely for taking up the charge--

 

You are looking into this thread again? Isn't a bit too hard for you? Your tender Ferrari bubble might get poked again. Run back to your mommy.

 

don't fan the flames.