458 vs McLaren MP4-12C--- Your thoughts?

This is precisely my biggest fear. In a quest to really outdo everything around, they might go the "super-Italia" way: electronics driving you around. The fact that you have to have special codes to turn off stability is a really bad sign.

They have a choice to make: given the light, super-stiff chassis, they can really go for the feel (which is not so easy to achieve on Italia), but they might be making the wrong one.

And it's not about Ferrai vs. Macca as such. I am very likely to keep the scud.

 

From what I've read, the Mac is worse. It's harder than the Italia to turn off the nanny controls. It's like they intentionally don't want you to do it.

 

I saw an interesting analysis of the jenson button / autocar video on another so I ruthlessly copy/paste it here as it speaks to the level of electronics in the 12C and the effects of not having an LSD.

All text by "Carrera GT".

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH9VfMaFTAQ[/ame]

"The cabin noise is so high, it drowns out their (raised) voices, the exhaust note is coming into the cabin at what I'd probably call "RS" levels ... damn loud!

1:05 -- air brake "deploys" ... more on this shortly

1:05 -- JB:"look how the front end goes in" ... he turns in, he car is pulling G's, they're both leaning into the G's, JB's hands are steady, no more turning, then "look at that!" (apparently indicating the car applied inside rear brake and turned the nose of the car into the turn) ... that might sound like conjecture on my part ... but listen as he explains ...

JB:"It's because it's got 'brake steer' on it" ... "when you're on the brakes" ... "it will turn the car in for you" ... when I realized what I heard, I decided to go back and listen to all the horrible things he said about the car ... it's not obvious at first blush

1:32" (gesturing with his hand to illustrate the car) JB:"the initial turn-in is understeer"

2:30 (gesturing with his bum in the seat to illustrate the car waggling its tail under brakes) JB:"you can feel it doing this a little bit under braking" (now, for sure his bum data acquisition system is more highly refined than all but perhaps a few dozen drivers on the planet, so "a little bit" to him might be imperceptible to most road-going drivers) and he attributes this to bumps on the track surface but then the bad news: Jenson is suggesting that the ABS is counteracting the "rear steering" of the car, not just the threshold of braking, but actively keeping the car doing whatever the steering wheel is interpreted to be doing.

And he has similar comments if you watch other journo's videos on YouTube (about the rear brake turning the car in and then explaining how ABS works, but in the context of the car rear-steering under brakes.)

Can the rear brakes possibly survive all the work of both being an "active braking differential" (in Porsche terms) and PSM as part of every turn?

I've read that the electronics can be fully disabled. What's the car like to drive when the driver is doing the driving instead of the electronics?

Was Jenson Button managing the speed to ensure enough speed to invoke the brake steering or was he ensuring he was bringing the speed down slow enough that the car would perform some other task ... perhaps simply making the turn without "getting into" the stability and having the whole show grind down (as PSM is want to do when a Carrera goes for the edge of the envelope.)

 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/motors/ken_gibson/3420661/Big-Mc-has-special-sauce.html


A NEW British supercar is something special.

But when it is part of an all-new British car company it becomes one of the most significant happenings in the UK car industry for years.

And when the name behind the company is racing giant McLaren, you realise the newcomer is a heavyweight contender.
Big Mc has special sauce

A state-of-the-art £62million factory, due to be completed in May, is concrete evidence that McLaren Automotive is deadly serious about challenging the supercar elite.

They will also provide a major jobs boost with 300 jobs at the factory and a total workforce of 850 by 2014 when the factory will be producing up to 4,500 cars a year.

McLaren have already sold every one of their first year's production of 1,000 cars to buyers from all over the world for the £168,500 MP4-12C model.

This is just the first of a family of supercars planned to take on Ferrari and Lamborghini head-on.

The car, and the company, are the vision of one man - ex-Formula One boss Ron Dennis. He has been one of the dominant forces in the cut-throat world of F1, guiding the likes of Lewis Hamilton, Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost, to become world champions.But now he is determined to produce the best supercars in the world right here in the UK.

As Ron told me: "We have long held the dream of building a range of high- performance sports cars that take F1 principles and performance and forge them into a unique road package.

"This car is the first step to realising that dream. It will be a world-class car, built in a world-class factory, by a world-class British team."

Built in Woking, Surrey, next to McLaren's F1 HQ, the factory is proof that Dennis's dream is turning into reality. The 20,000sq ft site, according to McLaren production boss Alan Foster, will "rewrite" the rules of the modern car production.
McLaren MP4-12C
High flyer ... MP4-12C will hit 62mph in just 3.3 seconds

For a start there will be no robots and no standard production line.

The immaculate factory is more like a science laboratory than a car plant and the workers wear black and orange Hugo Boss uniforms that further underline its uniqueness.

Foster, an industry veteran of more than 25 years, had a blank sheet of paper to create the ultimate plant.

He says: "This will be the most flexible car factory on the planet. There are no interior walls, no robots and no production line."

This is a factory where highly skilled humans are in control and where each technician individually signs off his work before passing it on to the next work station.

It means that the firm have total individual accountability for every component that goes into the car.

The factory has a combination of highly skilled technicians, who have been producing the McLaren SLR supercar in recent years, and new staff, such as 19-year-old Rachel Melvin.

Rachel, a trainee production team member, has got her dream job after doing work experience at McLaren.

She says: "I was a student doing a degree to become a motorsport technician but then this chance came up and it's brilliant. Every day is different and I'm being taught very diverse skills."

McLaren MP4-12C
Building the MP4 has been just as special for senior staff, like Neil Preston, who is the chief engineer on the supercar.

He says: "This car has to be great, it has to be the best. There has been a lot of pressure to get the car just right, but there is a huge hunger among all the staff to make it the best."

McLaren have taken more than five years and spent in excess of £250million developing the car. But after spending a day at the factory and driving the car, you are left with a real belief that the UK has a new world star on the horizon and a car firm to be proud of.


Exclusive first drive: McLaren MP4-12C

I PRESSED the "launch" control switch, floored the accelerator and my ears almost burst with an explosion of sound.

Within seconds the speedo was flashing 150mph and rising as I hurtled down the Top Gear track - Jeremy Clarkson eat your heart out.

At just below 160, I started braking hard as I ran out of track. But in just over a minute behind the wheel I had experienced why McLaren's MP4-12C is the real deal.

It is a lightweight supercar with heavyweight credentials fine-tuned from years of F1 racing pedigree.

Hitting 0-62mph in 3.3secs and with a top speed of 205mph gives the McLaren instant access to the supercar elite. It is ridiculously fast.

But several laps around the track, including three red-hot sideways laps with McLaren test driver Chris Goodwin at the wheel, was the best evidence that the MP4 has motoring's X Factor.

And a couple of hours driving the McLaren around British country roads, confirmed that it is also an everyday supercar, as easy to drive in traffic as it is fun to hurl around a track.

And that is crucial, as McLaren's aim is to beat Ferrari's road-going supercars, still seen by many as motoring's mission impossible.

McLaren MP4-12C
Face value ... the MP4 will set you back £168,500
The MP4 is a masterpiece of cutting- edge technology, with a unique lightweight carbon-fibre chassis and 3.6litre turbo engine.

Mood That, together with lightweight parts, is why the McLaren weighs just 1301kg. Every saved kilo is vital for extra performance.

Under the chassis is enough complex technology to launch a spaceship but in McLaren's case it keeps all four wheels on the ground at breakneck speeds and gives the driver high-precision steering responses.

The suspension can be switched using the "active dynamics panel" to cope with the driving conditions or the driver's mood.

The result is a car that responds instantly to the driver's input. It seems almost too controlled, until you look down at the speedo and see how quick you're going.

Beautifully sculpted sports seats hug you like a second skin, while the steering wheel - inspired by Lewis Hamilton's racing wheel - fits like a glove, along with perfectly placed F1 paddles to work the 7-speed autobox.

Everything seems to merge into a perfectly balanced supercar - a refreshingly simple yet luxurious cabin, with everything at the driver's fingertips.

And the McLaren looks every inch a supercar, with curves in all the right places - hardly surprising as the company hired former Ferrari designer Frank Stephenson to create the streamlined looks.

At £168,500, the McLaren undercuts the Ferrari Italia by a few thousand Pounds, another reason why the car's order book is already full.

McLaren's last road car was the legendary F1 model, the fastest and most exotic supercar on the planet when it was launched in 1993.

But this time McLaren's plans are far more long-term - to become the world's ultimate supercar manufacturer.

 

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2011/0216/1224289919709.html


McLaren finds the perfect formula

FIRSTDRIVE McLAREN MP4-12C: A test drive of the supercar that Formula 1 giants McLaren spent €900 million creating to rival Ferrari reveals a near-flawless machine, writes BEN OLIVER

“I had a Bugatti Veyron for a few months,” says Jenson Button. “But I wouldn’t compare it to this. It just wouldn’t be fair on the Veyron.” For the few who don’t know, the Veyron is the world’s fastest, most expensive car.

The former world champion has joined McLaren’s engineers at the Portimao race circuit in southern Portugal for the final test of its new MP4-12C supercar. It will not be launched until April, with the first customers taking delivery soon after. But I’m about to test it, and we’re the first to be able to tell you what this all-new supercar from a new supercar maker is like to drive on road and track.

Of course, you’d expect Button to be positive about the latest venture from the Formula 1 team that employs him. But his enthusiasm seems utterly genuine; uncontainable, even. He’s already spent the morning driving the car and has had a long meeting with McLaren’s engineers. “The guys working on this project really know what they’re doing, but for track use I think our input as racers has been useful. One thing I asked them to look at was the ‘click’ action on the shifters and they’ve made it much more positive.”

We’re sitting talking in one of the cars as another, bright orange 12C goes streaking down the main straight at Portugal’s Portimao circuit. Despite having spent all morning on track, Jenson plainly hasn’t had enough. “Let’s go chasing,” he says, so we reach up, pull the gullwing doors shut and conduct the rest of the conversation at race pace.

It’s hard to overestimate the importance of this new car. Ron Dennis, McLaren’s famously detail-obsessed boss, has decided to create – from scratch – a British supercar maker to rival Ferrari. Within five years McLaren will have a range of three supercars, plus lightweight and open-top derivatives, and will make 4,000 of them each year in the Norman Foster-designed factory it is building next to the McLaren Technology Centre – Ron’s Bond-villain headquarters sunk into the English countryside near Woking in Surrey. It’s a risky venture; the market for supercars is slowly recovering, but Dennis and his partners have no guarantee they’ll see the €900 million they’ve invested in their road car project again.

McLaren has built road cars before. It made more than 2,000 carbon-bodied, €350,000 SLRs for its partner Mercedes between 2003 and 2009. And most famously, it built just 107 examples of the McLaren F1, at the time easily the fastest, most expensive car in the world, and now acknowledged as one of the greatest cars ever made. You’d have paid at least €630,000 if you’d had the foresight to buy one new; now, the best examples sell for €3.5 million, if you can find an owner willing to sell.

So will your 12C prove to be as good an investment? It will be a lot cheaper, and McLaren will build a lot more of them; around 1,000 each year at €200,000, pitching it directly against Ferrari’s sensational 458 Italia. But like the F1 and every McLaren Formula 1 racer since 1981, the 12C gets a carbon-fibre chassis, making it around 50kg lighter than the aluminium Ferrari.

It has more power too; its all-new twin-turbocharged V8 engine, designed by McLaren and built in the UK by Ricardo, has a colossal 600bhp to the Ferrari’s 577.

So how fast is it? McLaren has kept the numbers secret until now. When the McLaren F1 first appeared it redefined fast, but the 12C accelerates even faster, and for a third of the price. It gets to 100km/h in 3.1 seconds, shading the F1 by two tenths, and is half a second faster to the benchmark 200km/h at just 8.9 seconds. Less power means its top speed isn’t as high, but 330km/h is hardly slow, beating the Ferrari by just 5km/h. Privately, McLaren’s engineers say that number is conservative.

I’d agree. On test, a couple of miles of clear, straight road I push the 12C easily towards a genuine 309km/h. It was still pulling like a freight train; there was plainly lots more to come. The brawny turbocharged V8 delivers its grunt lower down the rev range than the highly-strung Italian, and the sensation under full acceleration is closer to the mighty Veyron. The seven-speed, twin-clutch gearbox works like a proper F1 shifter. Hinged around the wheel, you can pull with your right hand or push with the left to change up.

The gearbox has three modes; in maximum-attack track setting the shifts are incredible, each one virtually instantaneous but without being violent. The gearbox setting also controls the exhausts; in track mode you get the full hard, hollow howl as you home in on the 8,500rpm redline.

The McLaren is absurdly fast; you worry that you’ve crossed the line from fast to too fast, that your mind might not be able to keep up. And when you run out of nerve, the optional carbon-ceramic brakes stop you so hard you’ll be hanging from your seat belt. But if you can steal a glance in the rear view mirror you’ll see they’re getting some help; a huge, near-vertical airbrake pops up under hard braking to help slow the car and keep more weight over the rear tyres, keeping the 12C eerily flat and stable.

The way it stops is almost as impressive as the way it goes, and so is the way it handles corners. The radical new ProActive chassis control system delivers both near-flat cornering on fast roads or racetracks, and a limo-like ride on cratered urban tarmac; they’re usually mutually exclusive. And the handling is incredible; the 12C using the “brake steer” system – developed by McLaren for its F1 cars but banned by the sport’s bosses – to gently brake the inside rear wheel through corners, sucking the nose tight into the apex.

It’s even good as a daily driver. Supercars are usually a pain to get into, see out of, and park. No such issues here; the gullwing doors look dramatic but make access easy, and the terrific visibility, comfortable ride and quiet (maybe too quiet in “normal” mode) exhaust make the 12C a car you’ll be happy to amble around town in. Bet you never thought you’d read that about a McLaren.

The only real flaw we can find with the MP4-12C is its flawlessness. It’s like a child prodigy; generally begotten by hyper-ambitious parents, staggering in its abilities, perfect in its behaviour, but oddly cool and aloof, and difficult to warm to. The other kids seldom want to hang out with the 12-year-old concert violinist. Criticising a car for being too perfect seems odd, but in a supercar, character and emotion and idiosyncrasy and simple, fidgety excitement count for a lot too.

Not that this is bothering Button, still out on the track and driving like his hair is on fire. When does he get his? “They haven’t given me a date yet. But I’ve ordered it. Black paint, black wheels, black cabin, red brake calipers and red stitching on the seats. It looks terrifying.” And if you see it behind you in Dublin or Monaco or even Guernsey, where he lives, move over.

 

Yes and thank you for your post.

like to drive the cars because they are great handling and powerful sport cars. Also part of it was I was working to much to enjoy life. Now I have the time and resources. The cars also look stunning.

These are kids at best or maybe and sadly wannabes!

Lee

 

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/stunning-mclaren-12c-to-take-on-ferrari-20110218-1azd9.html


Flat-out in the supercar that shifts McLaren's rivalry with Ferrari from racetrack to road. By Toby Hagon.

There's nothing like being part of history. McLaren's MP4-12C supercar might be a low-volume sports car that would be easy to dismiss as irrelevant to most and a dream for the rest of us but it's also the start of an ambitious brand devised to take on the might of Ferrari — this time off the racing track.

The 12C (as McLaren calls it) is only months from reaching dealers and the development team is putting the final touches on what is the formula one team's first road car produced entirely in-house (the 1990s F1 used a BMW V12 engine). And I'm along for the ride — literally.

Sure, plenty of brands have aired ambitions to take on the world's performance elite but most have remained almost unheard-of niche players. Unlike lower-volume or less-successful operations — Pagani, Koenigsegg and even Lotus spring to mind — McLaren believes it has the engineering prowess and proven ability to build cars in higher volumes and to world-class standards, working on the principle of getting the product right and relying on word of mouth to do the rest.

It's also not perturbed by the mammoth task of taking on some of the automotive world's most recognisable brands.

"Before the iPhone came on to the market, Steve Jobs hadn't produced a telephone," says McLaren boss Ron Dennis. "They had great products but not in that segment. How fast did it take [Apple] to penetrate?"

Like the iPhone, Dennis prefers to let the McLaren 12C speak for itself. Which brings me to a racetrack in Portugal.

"We're just finalising the wet-weather ESC [stability control] calibration," lead development driver and F1 test driver Chris Goodwin says before handing me the keys.

Predictably, it's raining. And I'm sliding into a car that will be one of the fastest and most exclusive on the road.

With a price tag upwards of $500,000, it's designed to take on arch-rival Ferrari's 458 Italia. Sitting alongside Goodwin doesn't do much to quell the nerves. He's calm about the idea of a stranger thrashing one of four development cars that have been unleashed on the media. Despite the remaining development work, he clearly has confidence in the operation of the stability control.

He doesn't flinch when the 12C — in McLaren's signature orange — breaks sideways at 100km/h while exiting a right-hander, lurching right violently before quickly getting back in line and resuming its potent form. I've never been so happy to have so much electronics working with me.

Its 441kW of power outguns the Ferrari 458 by 16kW. Twin turbochargers endow it with more torque, or mid-range pulling power, and the full 600Nm is available from as low as 3000rpm. It's also 51 kilograms lighter.

Right now, that torque's part of the problem. On the greasy Portimao track — an undulating collection of challenging twists and blind corners — the 12C is all too eager to spin its wheels in second or third gear. As I get more adventurous, I even manage to fire the traction control into action in fourth gear at 160km/h. Despite my best efforts, though, the 12C sticks faithfully to the script — and the track. Phew.

I'm not brave enough to switch off all the electronic aids, relying instead on the yet-to-be-finalised electronic programs, which, on a wet road, could be more progressive in their operation. All-wheel-drive would be even more handy but that would add weight, something McLaren has gone out of its way to shed in the 12C.

Instead of steel or aluminium, the body is made of a super-rigid carbon fibre "monocell" (like a giant two-seater tub), to which the engine, suspension and body panels are bolted. It's more than a touch of F1 in a road car.

The 12C is claimed to reach 100km/h in as little as 3.1 seconds (or 3.3 seconds when shod with the regular road-going Pirelli tyres fitted as standard) on its way to a top of 330km/h. The rain has ruled out any trial run, though.

Still, it doesn't take a stopwatch to confirm it is potently rapid. Even in third gear punching out of tight hairpins, the launch from 50km/h to beyond 100km/h takes a couple of seconds or less. You've got to feed the power in gently for fear of activating the stability control; my hands are gripping the beautifully tactile steering wheel like a monkey in a tree. And the 12C never looks like slowing, pulling ferociously all the way to its 8500rpm cut-out.

It's that combination of pull right across the rev range that makes the 12C so brutal. Driving sedately requires only a mild squeeze of the accelerator to bring the turbos to life, with only the vaguest hint of lag before they're pumping air ferociously into the relatively compact yet easily excitable 3.8-litre V8.

Let the revs build and there's an addictive wail as the engine fires towards its electronic limit. The dual-clutch gearbox, too, rips between gears in a manner — and speed — to which no manual could get close.

There's a mechanical jolt between full-throttle shifts and the occasional clunkiness from a standstill but it's otherwise a slick seven-speed set-up. It's the paddle-shifts that give the more complete experience; the metal paddles are like a see-saw connected left-to-right and pivoting in the centre, just like in the F1 car.

The engine has a muted V8 thrum when left in "Normal" mode. Flick the switch to "Sport" or "Track" mode (the latter deactivates the stability control altogether) and it unleashes a raucous, ferocious bark that's a spine-tingling mix of induction and high-tech explosions.

With the engine sitting centimetres behind me, there's a feeling I'm part of the whole go-fast equation. It's not as sexy to look at as the styled, red camshaft covers on a Ferrari, but McLaren says the emphasis was on getting the bespoke engine low in the compartment to lower the centre of gravity in a bid to improve handling.

Using just half the main straight, I see 235km/h on the digital speedo tucked into the elegantly functional tacho that dominates the simple, classy instrument cluster. At this stage, I decide to let the rain have its way and ease off. As I squeeze the brakes, the mirror fills with the rear spoiler that pops up to act as an air brake, washing off speed and aiding stability.

Jumping on those massive optional carbon ceramic brake discs, the deceleration is almost as impressive as the acceleration. McLaren claims the 12C will stop from 100km/h in 30.5 metres, which is about 20 per cent less distance than your average road car. The brakes need some encouragement when driven around town, with a firm yet confidence-inspiring feel, but they come to life when squeezed harder.

Backed up with 1.6 million kilometres of real-world testing, the 12C also lives up to the F1 ethos of working as well in a corner as it does in a straight line. It's arguably more advanced than an F1 car, such are the electronics on board.

Adaptive suspension adjusts to the conditions and the road surface. "Brake steer", developed for McLaren's 1997 F1 race car, makes an appearance in the 12C, applying brakes to one or more wheels to help the car point more accurately in the direction of the steering wheel. Unlike anti-lock brakes or stability control, it's difficult to feel it working but the results are obvious. The ability of the car to go where it's being directed without understeering — or pushing wide at the front — is phenomenal.

A tight and greasy right-left-right combination off the end of the main straight is the perfect challenge for the 12C. Even on a tight corner in the wet, it manages to tuck itself in and scythe through the bend with the sort of precision that can add a touch of Michael Schumacher or Lewis Hamilton to the whole equation.

The adjustable electronic suspension demonstrates how much effort McLaren has put into ensuring the 12C can live happily on pockmarked B-roads as well as a flowing, smooth racetrack.

Part of my test drive involves a scoot through the tight streets of a surrounding town, complete with speed humps, potholes and broken slabs of bitumen that do little to faze the composure of a car that was lapping a racetrack only minutes earlier. There's impressive compliance despite the ultra-low-profile Pirelli tyres (19 inches at the front and 20 inches at the rear).

Along with the air brake, the adaptive suspension is the kind of technology McLaren would love to include in its F1 cars, were it not banned. Indeed, the 12C has numerous technologies F1 simply doesn't allow.

"Many of the systems on this car, which are performance systems, are not allowed in formula one," says McLaren technical director Dick Glover, who freely admits he's "never been involved in a car with doors before, so it's all a bit of a mystery to me". "One of the things we love about [working on] road cars is you can do what you want [and not worry about restrictions], as long as there's a business case behind it," he says.

However, while the 12C doesn't lack character, its operation has a clinical feel. It has equal parts science and seat-of-the-pants engagement, although Dennis points to the numbers he says make it a class leader.

"There isn't a car in that [$500,000 sports car] segment that you can take and drive it faster around a circuit, accelerate faster, have a higher top speed, corner as fast, brake as fast and have the ride and handling characteristics [of the 12C]," he says.

"We've got them all, we've measured them all and we are significantly better than all the other cars."

Part of it stems from the development process, much of which took place on computers and on an advanced simulator that every other minute helps the McLaren F1 team shave thousandths of a second from its lap times. While McLaren developed dozens of prototypes, test drivers spent many days stationary and staring at a computer, validating new components in a virtual world.

"It saves time and money," says the head of testing and development, Geoff Grose. "If an adjustment [on the simulator] improves the performance, we can add it to the car and test it on the track almost immediately."

For all its whiz-bangery, the 12C is — thankfully — not perfect. One of the most difficult things is getting inside. It has no door handles, not even sensor pads; instead, a part of the paintwork reacts to a hand sliding across it.

Lifting the dihedral doors, which open out and up, reveals the thick outer rails of the carbon-fibre tub. The height of the doors means there's some ducking and weaving to get in.

One thing McLaren doesn't have is anything like the heritage or recognition of Ferrari, a brand most schoolchildren are more than happy to aspire to.

Sure, McLaren has enjoyed great success on the track but its road cars are limited to the almost-mythical F1 produced between 1993 and 1998 — of which just 64 road-going versions were sold — and the more prevalent Mercedes-Benz McLaren SLR (powered by a 5.5-litre supercharged V8).

Neither of them were sold in Australia, which increases the challenge of cementing the brand among the established elite.

Dennis is confident the 12C is evidence that McLaren has the substance on the road that it has on the track. While building race cars is about tweaking and tailoring often one-off designs, the experience of producing more than 2000 Mercedes-Benz McLaren SLRs fast-tracked the company's knowledge of the nuances of relative mass-production and positioned it well for the task of growing volume rapidly.

"We're running it with the discipline we learnt from Mercedes-Benz but, at the same time, hopefully capturing the spirit that we had when we built the F1 [supercar]," Dennis says.

"If you call the [sports car] market 100,000 [units sold] per year ... our ambition is only to take 4 per cent of the market, which we think is very conservative."

As for positioning the brand, he believes the F1 involvement is an ideal fit, with exposure unmatched for the target market.

"We have over £125 million [$200 million] a year that we're spending on advertising our brand and it's called formula one," Dennis says.

"What better way to develop our brand than show, hopefully, that we are consistently competitive?"

Dennis acknowledges McLaren is not known for road cars and will compete in a segment in which brand and image are almost as important as performance.

However, he firmly believes the company has the on-track reputation and engineering nous to compete.

"We are coming to the market with a brand that's not got the full reputation I would like it to have in this sector but we've taken on Toyota in formula one [and] we've beaten them," he says. "We've beaten Ferrari, we've beaten Porsche; most manufacturers put their tail between their legs and scampered off.

"Why on earth should I fear entering a market and going for 4 per cent of the market in five years' time when I've got a brand that's demonstrated to the world that we can win more world championships, three times the Indianapolis [500], Le Mans [and] numerous Can-Am championships?

"We have been dominant in every form of motorsport. If we can dominate in such a diverse range of disciplines, why should we fear entering the market with a sports car that we believe is better than our competition?

"Do I fear our ability to build our brand? No. Do I see it as a challenge? Yes."

History, of course, will have the final say.

 

Trying to keep this thread closer to the topic - I have a Scuderia and a 599 GTO but let my order for a 458 go after driving it at Fiorano I felt the Scuderia connected better with me on an emotional level (and it's not much slower than a 458 anyway). And that is very much the point - the emotional connection was quite a big factor in the experience.

I have seen all the video and print reviews of the McLaren and you have to admit McLaren has really pulled out something special - from a technical point of view. It's not exciting visually (and the journos unanimously agree here - UK car put a rear-end shot on their cover because they said it just didn't do it from the front!) but it is technically brilliant. I'm not sure I could spend that kind of money on a car that didn't excite me visually - but perhaps it's better in the flesh than pics suggest.

One thing I am thankful for to McLaren (as a Ferrari owner) is that they've given Ferrari a real kick in the backside to be more creative. I was hugely disappointed to find the 458 so much heavier than the 430 - what was that MilleChilli bullsh!t anyway? Cars must get lighter not just more powerful and McLaren's solutions to suspension and aero pose some interesting questions. Ferrari used to have this market very much to themselves (yes, there was Lambo to some extent) but McLaren are the equivalent heavy-hitter in F1 - they don't do anything half measure.

I am probably not alone in feeling that Ferrari is spending a lot of their resources today chasing a much "softer" buyer - hence the Cali, FF and even the usability of the 458 compared to earlier models - but I suppose in the end its a business and there are more of those buyers than us hard-core enthusiasts. As long as they keep giving us the specials - they can build what they like.

But rest assured the 12C will light a flame under Ferrari's 458 "Scuderia" team - that should be some car. Let the games commence! (Thank you McLaren)

 

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/first-dr...


Getting into the sleek McLaren 12C is arguably the most difficult part of driving it. There's no doorhandle, not even a sensor pad or any indication as to where or what you might have to press or push to open them.

Instead there's a part of the paintwork under the dominant crease that reacts to a hand sliding across it, in turn electronically releasing the latch. No doubt owners will quickly remember exactly where that spot is, because visions of standing in a busy city of stroking a car for no apparent reason could raise a few eyebrows.

Faith should be restored once you raise the dihedral doors that open out and up reveals the thick outer rails of the carbon fibre tub. While there may be more foot room to swing inside, the height of the doors mean there's some ducking and weaving to get in.
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Once there, you instantly feel at one with the car, sitting close to the road and relatively close to the passenger (the 12C is strictly a two-seater). The tactile steering wheel - its chunky grip was modeled from McLaren Formula One cars - is bare of buttons and switches, with shift paddles mounted behind it.

A crisp, clear tachometer dominates the compact instrument cluster that's flanked by twin colour screens on either side.

In the centre of the McLaren 12C's cabin there's a digital screen that will look after everything from the satellite-navigation (complete with track mapping functions) to the audio system and other major functions.

Between it and the electronic handbrake is a selection of buttons and dials to control the major driving functions of the car, including the stability control and engine response.

Start the car and the switchable electronics are in their most docile mode, with the most aggressive stability control program and softest suspension, not matter how you left the car when you last turned it off. Press the "Active" button, though, and it takes note of where the two knobs are pointing - Normal, Sport or Track (more on those later).

For now, though, the McLaren 12C is nearing the end of its four-year development program and I'm the only Aussie to have been flung the keys to one of three prototypes representative of the soon-to-be finished project.

All that's left before the McLaren is signed off for deliveries are some minor electronic tweaks, including to the wet weather performance of the stability control system that's designed to contain a slide.

Predictably, it's raining - and I've got 441kW of power at my disposal in a car that will cost upwards of $500,000. Fortunately, though, my first acquaintance comes on the roads surrounding the challenging Portimao circuit in Portugal.

McLaren is keen to demonstrate that the 12C is not a one-trick pony that's been engineered entirely on a race track. It's not often your first taste of one of the fastest cars on the planet comes through tight streets, stop signs and potholed roads.

But the McLaren is surprisingly compliant over very second rate surfaces despite the ultra low profile Pirelli tyres (19-inch in diameter at the front and 20-inch at the rear).

It's also good at keeping its nose clear of dips and undulations that can often scar the underside of a high performance machine.

Unleashing the 3.8-litre V8 on some country roads, though, quickly reveals just how brisk it is.

I'm glad we're heading back to the track to test a car that clearly has impressive pace.

My first on-track stint comes alongside long time McLaren F1 test driver Chris Goodwin, the man who's also helped develop the McLaren 12C to be a genuine competitor to the Ferrari 458 Italia - it's most natural on-paper rival.

Sitting alongside Goodwin doesn't do much to quell the nerves as rain gently falls. He's calm about the idea of a stranger thrashing one of four development cars that have been unleashed on the media.

Despite the remaining development work, clearly he has confidence in the operation of the stability control. He doesn't flinch when the trademark orange 12C breaks sideways for me at 100km/h exiting a right-hander, lurching right violently before quickly stepping back into line and resuming its potent form. I've never been so happy to have so many electronics working with me.

On paper the McLaren mounts a ferocious sports car case. Its 441kW outguns the Ferrari 458's by 16kW. It's 51kg lighter. Twin turbochargers endow it with more torque, or mid-range pulling power, and the full 600Nm is available as low as 3000rpm.

Right now that's part of the problem; on the greasy Portimao track - an undulating collection of challenging twists and blind corners - the 12C is all too eager to spin its wheels in second or third gear. As I get more adventurous I even manage to fire the traction control into action in fourth gear at 160km/h. Despite my best efforts, though, the 12C is sticking faithfully to the script - and the track. Phew.

I'm not brave enough to switch all the electronic aids off, instead relying on the yet-to-be-finalised electronic programs, which on a wet road could be more progressive in their operation. Four-wheel-drive would be even more handy, but that'd add weight, something McLaren has gone out of its way to shed in the 12C.

Instead of steel or aluminium the body is made of a super rigid carbon fibre "monocell" (like a giant two-seater tub), to which the engine, suspension and body panels are bolted on. It's more than a touch of F1 in a road car and is currently the only one of its ilk available here.

The 12C is claimed to reach 100km/h in as little as 3.1 seconds (3.3 seconds when shod with the regular roadgoing Pirelli tyres fitted as standard) on its way to a top speed of 330km/h, but the rain has ruled out any trial run.

Still, it doesn't take a stopwatch to confirm that the 12C is potently rapid. Even in third gear punching out of tight hairpins the launch from 50km/h to beyond 100km/h takes a couple of seconds or less and you've got to feed the power on through fear of activating the stability control; my hands are gripping the beautifully tactile steering wheel like a monkey on a tree.

And the 12C never looks like slowing, pulling ferociously all the way to its 8500rpm cutout. It really is an impressive display of how much power, torque and light weight can lead to serious performance. Few cars on the road will get near the 12C in a straight line.

It's that combination of pull right across the rev range that makes the 12C so brutal. Driving sedately requires on a mild squeeze of the accelerator to bring the turbos to life, with only the vaguest hint of lag before they're pumping air ferociously into the relatively compact yet easily excitable 3.8-litre V8.

Yet let revs build and there's an addictive wale as the engine fires towards its electronic limit. The twin-clutch gearbox, too, rips between gears in a way - and speed - no manual could get close to. There's a mechanical jolt between full throttle shifts, and the occasional clunkiness from a standstill, but it's otherwise a slick seven-speed set-up. With a full auto mode, it's the paddle shifts that give the more complete experience; the metal paddles are like a see-saw connected left-to right and pivoting in the centre, just like in the F1 car.

The engine has a muted V8 thrum when left in Normal mode. But flick the switch to Sport or Track mode (the latter deactivates the stability control altogether) and it unleashes a raucous, ferocious bark that's an ear tingling mix of induction and high tech explosions.

With the engine sitting inches behind me there's a feeling you're part of the whole go-fast equation.

That said, it's not as sexy to look at as the styled red camshaft covers on a Ferrari; McLaren says the emphasis was on getting the bespoke engine low in the compartment to lower the centre of gravity - all with the aim of improving handling.

Using just half the main straight I manage to see 235km/h on the digital speedo tucked into the elegantly functional tacho that dominates the simple, classy instrument cluster before deciding to let the rain have its way and easing off.

As I ease on to the brakes and squeeze gently the mirror fills with the rear spoiler that pops up to act as an air brake, washing off speed and aiding stability.

Jumping on those massive optional carbon ceramic brake discs and the deceleration is almost as impressive; McLaren claims the 12C will stop from 100km/h in 30.5 metres - about 20 per cent less than your average road car.

The brakes need some encouragement when driven around town, with a firm yet confidence-inspiring feel, but they come to life when squeezed harder.

Backed up with 1.6 million kilometers of real world testing, the 12C also lives up the Formula One ethos of working as well in a corner as it does in a straight line. Indeed, the 12C is arguably more advanced than an F1 car such are the electronics on board.

Adaptive suspension adjusts to the conditions and the road surface. Brake steer that was developed for the 1997 McLaren F1 car makes an appearance in the 12C, applying brakes to one or more wheels to have the car more accurately point in the direction of the steering wheel. Unlike ABS or stability control, it's difficult to feel it working, but the results are obvious. The ability of the car to point the way it's being directed without pushing wide at the front - or understeering - is phenomenal.

A tight and greasy right-left-right combination off the end of the main straight is the perfect challenge. Even in the wet when it's thrown at a tighter corner it manages to tuck itself in and scythe through the bend with the sort of precision that can add a touch of Schumacher - or Lewis Hamilton - to the whole equation.

The electronic suspension with three settings - Normal, Sport and Track - demonstrates how much effort McLaren has put into ensuring the 12C can live happily on pockmarked B roads as well as a flowing, smooth race track.

Along with the air brake, it's the sort of thing McLaren would love to include in its Formula One cars, were it not banned. Indeed the 12C has numerous technologies that F1 simply doesn't allow.

"Many of the systems on this car which are performance systems that are not allowed in formula one," said technical director Dick Glover, who admits frankly that he's "never been involved in a car with doors before, so it's all a bit of a mystery to me".

"One of the things we love about [working on] road cars is you can do what you want [and not worry about cost restrictions], as long as there's a business case behind it."

But while the 12C isn't lacking in character, there's a clinical feel to its operation. There's equal parts science and seat-of-the-pants engagement, although McLaren boss Ron Dennis points to the numbers that he says make it a class leader.

"There isn't a car in that ($500,000 sports car) segment that you can take and drive it faster around a circuit, accelerate faster, have a higher top speed, corner as fast, brake as fast and have the ride and handling characteristics (of the 12C)."

"We've got them all, we've measured them all and we are significantly better than all the other cars."

Part of it stems from the development process, much of which took place on computers and on an advanced simulator that every other minute is helping the McLaren F1 team shaves thousandths of a second from its lap times.

While McLaren developed dozens of prototypes, test drivers spent many of their days stopped and staring at a computer screen in the same simulator that shaves thousands of a second off F1 lap times by validating new components in a virtual world.

"It saves time and money," says Geoff Grose, head of testing and development. "If an adjustment [on the simulator] improves the performance we can add it to the car and test it on the track almost immediately."

One thing McLaren doesn't have is anything like the heritage or recognition of Ferrari, a brand most schoolkids would be more than happy to aspire to owning.

Sure, McLaren has enjoyed more success on the track, but its road cars are limited to the almost mythical F1 produced between 1993 and 1998 - of which just 64 roadgoing versions were sold - and the more prevalent (and recent) Mercedes-Benz McLaren SLR.

Neither of them were sold in Australia, increasing the challenge of cementing the brand among the established elite.

 

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=23176


When McLaren offered to answer questions about its new 12C from PHers, unsurprisingly we got a flood of suggestions via the forum.

In order to make the situation a little more manageable, we got the PH HQ censorship... er, editing pencil out, and fiddled around until we'd arrived at a list that fairly and accurately reflected the thoughts of as many PHers as possible. (Which is our way of saying sorry if your question wasn't included, but thanks for taking part and we hope you understand!)

More importantly we'd like to pass on a big vote of thanks to the trio of experts from McLaren Automotive who took time out to provide these answers. In spite of being quite busy launching a brand new supercar.

The trio of McLaren Automotive experts are:

Paul Burnham - Vehicle Dynamics Manager
Richard Farquhar - Function Group Manager, Powertrain
Neil Patterson - Chief Designer

Read on for PHQs (&As)...


Q1. How many different settings are there for the traction control?

PB: There are different settings for 'Normal', 'Sport', 'Track' and 'Off' modes.

Q2. How many different settings are there to adjust the suspension (from soft to hard)? Is the suspension itself adjustable? e.g. ride height, camber, rear toe etc..?

PB: There are 3 main suspension settings:
'Normal' - the most comfortable setting
'Sport' - the best compromise between ride and handling for road use
'Track' - the best settings for optimum track performance

Q3. Are these two on separate controls (so, for example, you can keep full soft suspension while ordering the TC to intervene less)? Or are they linked on the same control like they are on my Ferrari, which is really, really annoying?

PB: Suspension stiffness (roll stiffness and damping) are controlled by the 'Handling' switch along with traction control and stability control settings. There is another 'Powertrain' switch which controls gearbox and engine settings.

Q4. Was the forced-induction born out of regulatory necessity or packaging?Given the inherent advantages of naturally-aspirated engines (throttle response, high-revving, linear power delivery), how happy is McLaren with the compromise? Or do you not think that it is a compromise?

RF: The all new 12C engine and it's control system has achieved an uncompromised power unit which has a high rev range for a turbo charged engine (8,500rpm), sporty transient response and progressive power delivery - all within a small and light weight package which benefits the vehicle as a whole . Couple to the seamless shift gearbox the powertrain has achieved class leading levels of efficiency and performance.

Q5. Currently recognised supercar brands each have perceived strengths - Porsche's drivability and durability whilst remaining almost anonymous, the exotic, 'special' nature of Ferrari and the explosive, OTT Lamborghini image. Which qualities are you hoping will be bestowed upon the MP12 and future road going McLarens?

PB: The target has been to make the 12C a very comfortable and easy-to-drive car, whilst ensuring it has huge performance when the driver wants to use it (including on a track). We would hope that the 12C is recognised as being the best ultra-high-performance car bar none, but which is also a realistic proposition as an everyday car.

Q6. Without an LSD, and with brake-steer, how will the car behave over-powering out of a corner? What electronics mechanisms will be installed to prevent over exuberant throttle positions in wet or poor grip situations? Have there been any particularly clever designs incorporated to assist with traction when deploying full power?

PB: The brake steer system is transparent to the driver - the car feels like it has a torque-vectoring differential with excellent traction and no tendency to power understeer. It is, of course, possible to break traction in some circumstances and the behaviour of the car then depends on the 'handling' mode selected (due to different traction control settings), varying between safe and stable in 'Normal' mode, up to allowing very driftable powerslides in 'Track' mode.

The 'Proactive Chassis Control' suspension system fitted to the 12C naturally gives the car very good traction due to the ability of the wheels to absorb bumps even while the car is cornering hard, so no other specific measures were necessary to improve traction.

Q7. How much of an aero compromise is there, in terms of high end speed and handling? For example, in order to hit headline grabbing figures and make a car slippery for high speed (say 150mph+), how much of a disadvantage does this place on lower speed handling?

PB: Since aero does not start to have an effect until higher speeds the car still has to have good mechanical grip and handling at low speeds, and there is no conflict between this and achieving even better performance at higher speeds once the downforce is also contributing to grip. It is just important to ensure that the downforce is well balanced and matches the mechanical setup of the car (hence the use of an airbrake).

Q8. What have you been able to do with the engine that will set it apart from the competition?

RF: Both the performance and the efficiency that have been achieved with the engine put the 12C in a very strong position in the market. There have been many areas which have had intense focus in design to achieve these goals including package and integration of internal & external components on the engine, intelligent use of materials, turbo charger design & application and optimised performance right across the rev range from low speed idle and response, a wide & full torque range and high speed power. Acoustically the engine also delivers a high level of sporty sound quality from a turbo charged engine both internally and externally.

Q9. What will be the front to rear weight distribution?

PB: 42.5% front, 57.5% rear

Q10. Why doesn't the car have a mechanical limited slip differential?

PB: When we started the 12C project, we looked at all the technologies available and there was a clear performance benefit from new technologies such as torque vectoring differentials, compared to older differential technologies. However, brake steer (as found in the 12C) was chosen because it offers all the performance benefits of a torque-vectoring differential without the extra weight (which would have been 20-30 kg).

Q11. Why are the front control arms in the exploded picture the wrong way round? An answer to the NSX's compliance pivot?

PB: It is a screenshot taken from the end of the 'explosion' animation on the McLaren Automotive website (www.mclarenautomotive.com) - if you look at the beginning of the animation the wishbones are the right way round!

Q12. Where was the main focus when designing and producing the chassissuspension geometry and set up and all the factors involved in that? Obviously the car is designed to be very high performance but where was the split between road and track balance and how did this affect both the design and calibration of the final product.

PB: We chose technologies which allowed us to minimise the compromise between road and track, such as the 'Proactive Chassis Control' system - most cars can't change the roll stiffness of the car from one mode to another, or have different stiffness in roll to 'warp' (what you find driving along bumpy roads).
When you can change the whole stiffness of the car from one mode to another you can optimise each mode much more closely to its desired target rather than finding a compromise between all modes - therefore the 12C has better comfort in its road modes than any competitor yet also better body control and handling balance in its track-biased modes.

Q13. What tyres are going to be standard fitment?

PB: Pirelli PZero tyres are the standard tyre, and Pirelli PZero Corsa tyres as an option. There is also a winter tyre option available (Pirelli Sottozero)

Q14. How much power could the chassis handle in its current format? My line of thinking on this question is not in regard to aftermarket tuning but more a case of what other model variants we could potentially see from McLaren themselves. As we all know the first incarnation of any manufacture model invariably leads to some more focussed/ltd edition models later down the line. (It would be nice to see a GTR type version etc with similar looks to those Photoshop pics doing the rounds on the web lately...

PB: We could speculate, but it's not reached the limit in the 12C...

Q15. Which road car (in current or recent production, no McLarens allowed) do you most admire and why?

NP: I think the Audi R8. Audi has long been respected for its build quality, and to bring that quality to the entry-level supercar market would have been a wake-up call to any company that thought it was okay to ship sub-standard cars while relying on the "quirky personality" argument to excuse themselves. We, of course, have great experience of producing high quality cars from our SLR programme, and have carried that forward to the 12C.

Q16. You've stated that every component on the new car is purposed designed by McLaren. I know you have designed your own AC, does this extend to literally every system on the car - window mechanisms, motors, wipers etc?

NP: Yes - every system. The window mechanism system and wipers are all brand new for McLaren. Obviously some individual components such as wiper motors start off as off the shelf parts from suppliers, but what happens is that through development testing we identify where those parts do not meet our specifications as part of the system and introduce changes to meet our sign-off criteria. Corrosion resistance is a good example of that, with many proprietary parts not meeting out exacting standards in this area.

Q17. I'm currently studying motor vehicle mechanics at college and was wondering if you could give me advice on how to get into a company like McLaren? How does McLaren recruit generally?

NP: As you can probably imagine, we get plenty of applications for our vacancies, and an enormous number of CVs sent to us on spec. My best advice for anyone wanting to come and join us is to make sure you are the best in your class. Nothing in life that is worth anything comes to us easily.

Q18. Has development begun on any other models yet?

NP: Yes, it has. Vehicle programmes have a long gestation period, so for all car companies, development of the next car has started long before launch of the current one. We've got a lot of work to do over the next few years, and we'll be employing more people to do that, with 300 new jobs being created to cover the extra workload.

Q19. Which one element of the car has the closest link to the F1 program?

NP: One element? Carbon. It's the one thing that has allowed us to do so much with the car to make it what it is. It has allowed us to reduce frontal area, thus reducing drag and improving CO2 emissions down to 279g/km. At the same time, its properties have meant that we haven't had to reduce cabin space as well. It's allowed to produce a car that weighs in well below the competition, and because the carbon MonoCell's stiffness contributes significantly to overall chassis stiffness, it has meant that we could save weight elsewhere in the chassis on the aluminium frames. It has given us incredibly good results in crash testing, improving occupant safety without adding mass. And as the key part in the chassis, it has given us a flexible and adaptable platform for developing new cars in the future.

Q20. Would you like to go back to Le Mans?

NP: Well, as my grandmother used to say, "Chunto!" Personally, absolutely! As a company, the GT3 racing programme that we are working on with CRS is generating an interesting level of excitement and anticipation around the office - and office which is usually half empty around the Le Mans weekend. I'm pretty sure that some GT3 customers will want to race there, and I can't wait to cheer them on!

Q21. Now the car is finished, is there anything you wish you had done differently?

NP: Finished? It's never finished until you break my pencils! We've got a hugely ambitious and courageous team of engineers, always wanting to bring something new and better to the car - just like the Formula 1 team. You'll see that every time McLaren brings a new model to market, it will feature the latest in innovative engineering and technology.

Q22. Was the performance, styling, user interface (i.e. indicators on the wheel etc) of the Ferrari 458 a surprise? Was the '12C benchmarked against a Ferrari, if so which one?

NP: We benchmarked our car against all the major competitors. Styling is such a subjective matter that I don't want to comment. I was really surprised by the number of controls on the steering wheel of the F458, but the most surprising thing for me was just how light the 12C is in comparison.

Q23. Have you learnt much from Mercedes?

NP: We learned a lot from Mercedes. The SLR was Mercedes' highest quality car, and we are rightly proud of that, but it wouldn't have been without us learning from them. The best part of the whole relationship was learning how to adapt big company procedures which ensure quality and reliability to an agile small company setting.

Q24. What is your aim with the MP4-12C, and what will it be measured against?

NP: I've seen a reasonable amount of comparisons to the Veyron on the PH forums, but the 12C isn't aimed at that market. Without a doubt it will be measured against the F458 and other sports cars cars priced from £125,000 to £175.000. As you can see from our performance figures, future competitor cars will almost certainly be measured against ours. Our aim is to keep raising the bar and that extends to every area; performance, ownership experience, driveability and so on.

 

Thanks for posting the articles- some good info in the pistonheads Q&A. I came across a PM review: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/reviews/drives/2011-mclaren-mp4-12c-test-drive?click=pm_latest

 

These are all interesting points. IF all LSD functions are managed by the brake-steer, how will the brakes hold up in extensive track work? Another consideration for CCB/Steel debate.
In the engineer debriefing, they said that the brake steer serves the same function as torque vectoring differential and is more effective (and lighter) than the standard LSD. I have never driven a car with torque vectoring. I know they put them now on the new Turbos. Anybody care to comment?

As to understeer, he mentions around 1:30 that once you are on he brakes and pick up front grip, you get no understeer. At least that's what I can make out.

In another video (I think with Chris Chilton, but not sure) Jenson mentions that it's the first street car that does behave like a race car: no boring understeer to wait through on corner entry. Again, he's part of the marketing machine, so I am not sure how valuable that insight is.

 

"...The MP4 attacks turns like a race car, with terrific steering feel and little brake dive or body roll. What's more, the various hardware, like the air brake and trail-braking feature, actually works. In short, this 3161-pound supercar feels cleaver-sharp and comes as close as one can get to an out of body experience on four wheels..."

 

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.autobild.de/artikel/fahrbericht-mclaren-mp4-12c-1556314.html&ei=9YxhTZbFDeWX4gbitPDVCQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dautobild%2Bmp4-12c%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DMMx%26sa%3DX%26tbo%3D1%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26tbs%3Dqdr:w%26prmd%3Divns

Click on the link to read, as the translation does not cut and paste easily.

The summary may be seen as somewhat controversial by many on here.

"Ferrari are loud, bright, poisonous. Lamborghini are evil, brutal, uncompromising. Porsche are minimalist, curve-hugging race track addictive. The McLaren MP4-12 is a racer for all days, with a GT sports car genes, a Speed King without affectations. Ron Dennis must be satisfied with himself and the world".

 

What impresses me the most about this car is how flat it stays in those videos. You know Jenson Button is driving it hard. You know where the brakes and throttle are being applied. The car does not roll in the corners nor does it pitch under braking or acceleration.

 

I think anyone would think calling cars "evil" and "poisonous" as controversial and not really befitting of a comparison. I assume the terms have lost something in translation?

 

I like evil and poisonous!

 

Agree it may be lost in translation, any german speakers care to comment?

 

Blue VP model being followed in the UK.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tASNvWqMh60[/ame]


Looking at the way it is being driven, I think it must have been a journo driving back from the pub

 

Anybody know what color that 12C is in the video?

 

Would love to see it from the front and side in that color.

 

Awch, that was close with the Focus!

 

+1 - to yours & bdelp comments, you have generally both removed the biased & overly emotional content from your comments.

I have I guess been a lurker to this thread until now & I also find the discussion totally appropriate for this Forum. Frankly, I find it is a more balanced critique of the merits & pitfalls of each car than any other forum or over on the new McLaren forum.

Most people have subtle differences & requirements to their exotic car ownership, all opinions are valid and I for one like to read them all when researching the possible purchase of something new.

I own a Scud & have owned numerous other Ferraris previously & I find the McLaren very interesting & tempting, I love the look of the 458 but I am not convinced after demo drives twice on track to sell my Scud for a 458, I just don't think it is a big enough step forward over the Scud in areas that appeal to me.

I am seriously contemplating an MP4 until the 458 Scud arrives, & the discussion here I find helpful to my decision making, ultimately I will wait until driving the MP4, before actually moving to speccing a car and taking the leap. I think most here would deliberate more with the decision to buy a car like this than if it was a new Ferrari, I know I am finding it more difficult to make a decision compared to any previous Ferrari, that probably has something to do with the emotion attached to Ferrari ownership.

 

+1

 

Well said