How about removing, cleaning, and regaping your spark plugs. Could be an issue. Also, try running a injector cleaner through with a few tanks of gas. Redline makes a great one. I picked up bad gas once in Sacramento in a BMW and barely made it home. Ran Redline injector cleaner through two tank fulls and it corrected the problem. Might be worth a try.
While I see your humor/irony in this, I think there is the advantage to the " higher milage, sorted out, non-garage queen ". My 28k mile car has no gremlins like this at all. Might be a different story if the car was known to sit for extended periods of time and allow corrosion on various components. I know this isn't answering your question, but felt like I had to stand up for us with "worn out" cars. Back to your problem, I'd take it to a cert mechaninc and have them resolve it. Too much time spent pulling out your hair otherwise.
remember that when the car sits overnight the fuel that had boiled has now condensed back into liquid and the instant the ECU sees a tach the pumps turn on and fuel, not vapor, is injected. While hot the fuel boils to a vapor and the injectors will not work properly with a vapor. The fuel rail may be pressurised but it still is full of vapor (much like pumping up a brake pedal even though there is air in the caliper or line.) Until the vapor purges through the injectors it will be difficult to start. Winter blend fuel and many fuel additives will aggrevate this concern during the summer.. It sounds as if it is not that severe in your case. Are you comparing similar year 360's as there are many product improvements some involving the Motronic and software levels and they do react differently at start up. Even the same year may have a product change from an early year production to a late year production.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, this is the best explanation so far. I guess this is not that big of a deal, as most of the time the car is cold and starts right up, but it is the multiple grocery store stops that causes embarrassment. The 360 I compared it to was an US 99 360 coupe F1, but I have spoken with someone else with a 2000 360 spider that have the same exact issue. This problem seems to be more related to spiders as the engine bay have poor ventillation compare to coupes.
Windsock has certainly well defined the issue. It goes in line what I said about the ambient engine heat vaporizing the gas. Good job. Windsock.
I just can't believe no one else have experienced the same issue, or most owners are just not as sensitive as me.
I do but it does not disturb me. I understand the issue exactly as Winsock outlined it. If you have ever flown airplanes or dealt with inboard boats you will experience this regularly. Gas vaporizes with heat, it is not as dense for the combustion cycle, and it takes an extra turn of the crank to compress the gas for it to ignite. You could also open your rear deck when the car is hot to let out the heat. It would help. I do this as frequently as is possible to make sure th wiring, connectors, hoses, etc don't get overly cooked with uncirculating cooler air.
Gcalo, Thanks. I do open the decklid on a regular basis when I know the car is in a safe place where I can leave it open. But it is difficult to do that when I go to grocery stores.
Rick, I am 90% sure it is gas and heat related, probbly due to the high concentraion of ethanol in the CA gasoline. As I can repeatly reproduce the same exact problem with my Porsche 996, since my C4's gas filter is located in the engine bay it soaks up a lot of heat in the hot engine bay. If I leave the engine lid open it will never had an starting issue. I recently changed the gas brand in my 360 from Chevron to Shell, as someone mentioned that Costco and Chevron gas comes from the same source. Which explains that both my 360 an d996 displayed the same exact problem. One last thing I want to try for the 360 is to get a new battery, but I am doubtful that will change anything.
I had to straighten out a 360 with this same/similar issue. Basically the car acted like if was fuel 'flooded' from injector leak-down, would take longer than normal (just a few additional seconds) to fire and then run rough till it cleared. I found the problem by getting the car to a temperature that would cause the issue and then pulled the fuel rail with injectors and supply hose connected and then watching the injector nozzles. I could blow them dry and then after a few minutes they would be damp again, so slightly that at first I did not think the amount of fuel could cause the problem. I changed the injectors and the issue was gone, also when I checked the new injector nozzles under the same circumstances as the old they would be perfectly dry. It is easy to do this check and may provide some useful information as to the cause of your issue. Best of luck.
James, Thank you for the input, one of the first questions I raised was the injectors. I was thinking that it was dripping fuel, but I watched the exhaust on start up to see if there are any signs and didn't notice any noticeable smoke on startup. However it is like you mentioned whenever I experienced long cranking beofore it will catch the engine seems to stumble a little and idles a little low.
Could it be the crank sensor. I think someone else made this suggestion. It is the first thing I could think of. When the sensors start to go bad they will become erratic and temperature might become a trigger
BTW still living with this hot starting issue no resolution yet. One more piece of information to add which may sound like electrical related. If I crank the engine for a brief 1-2 seconds and then turn off the key and then start again it fires right up. FWIW, changing to a new battery didn't make any difference.
Accept it as a characteristic of the car and ignore I suggest! If it get's worse it will be easier to fix if it doesn't it's not a problem?
Well the good news is that the symptoms have not gotten any worse. But still would like to get to the bottom of this.
Robin, what happens if you spray some starter fluid in the intake? If is fires right up I'm thinking the problem is electrical. Backward thinking? Yes. Do the test and I'll tell you why. Just buy some starter fluid at kragan and spray into the intake for 2 seconds and crank the car and report.
+1! Did you end up changing the fuel pressure regs??? I may have missed you saying that in this thread.
There are no external fuel regulator in the 360, I think it is part of the fuel pump inside the gas tank.
Have you ever compared your cars fuel line routing and heat shields to another 360. "Windsocks" fuel vaporization theory sounds good. You mention after a short attempt to start the car it fires quickly on the second attempt. Sounds like the vapors have been cleared and you have fuel again.
Wow, ok. Interesting. It must have a check valve in the system somewhere to hold pressure in the fuel rail......................or it may be built into the outlet of the fuel pump in the tank. If it does have a check valve, maybe that is worn or has some crap in it which is letting fuel drain from the fuel rail and causing this issue. Would be VERY nice to know what they use to keep pressure in the fuel system.
A simple fuel pressure test at the rail with a hot engine would determine a pump fault. I've only ever changed one, however, they are pretty good. I doubt the vaporisation theory personaly. Over here in Cyprus we have many, many 360's without challenge grilles, cobined with extremely high ambient temps and i've not come across this scenario. You need someone with an SD2 and good working knowledge of Bosch motronics.
I don't think it is fuel pressure. It starts after a brief twist of the key and release. Second twist starts right away. Sounds like something is not turning on fast enough on the first key cycle when hot. Then on the second it is energized. Just a thought.
