The official MP4-12C Thread

You know, my dealer is 5 miles away, so i don't have to worry too much about that. Warranty is a concern, but i am hoping to find out in 30 minutes. yes, i am about to put down a deposit sight unseen. Again, it's the excitement of the new, so we can all project our fantasies on the car . Till we drive it.

 

My dealer says warranty 3 years unlimited miles.

 

Fair enough. In fact, when it comes to cars I'm usually not an early adopter. This is the first car that looks so amazing to me that I really don't want to wait the extra year. I'm hoping that McLaren's 1 million plus test miles were legit and that Ron's perfectionist persona (that most around here seem to hate) will carry through. For sure, somewhat of a leap of faith, but all indications are that McLaren is aiming to set new standards for build-quality as well. The zero-fault processes and so on that I have read about remind me of how the Veyron is made, although obviously not quite to the same degree.

 

OK, I can live with a 3 year warranty....I'll be sure to trade it in or sell it by then. My dealer is less than 5 mins away, so there's no issue there. I am pressing the dealer to find one that I can see, hear and if not drive...at least be driven in before I commit. To me, I will wait for a later delivery slot, if need be, just to have that experience and peace of mind.

I'd spec mine in black fire...saw the actual paint sample and placed it in direct sunlight...does not turn bronze like configuration but rather stays black with red highlights. Think of the red pearl on 458 but much darker.

 

Thanks for the feedback on the fire red. Been wondering about that colour a lot, myself. Really hoping we can at least see some factory pics of these colours soon.

Any of you guys considering wrapping the car to get the colour you want? For those that intend to trade or sell after 3 years, perhaps also a nice way to protect the investment.

 

Some more info about the testing regime. From: http://www.scribd.com/doc/31761255/Automotive-Testing-Technology-International-June-2010

Just providing this for information purposes, since some are interested in reliability, etc. Not trying to convince anybody to do anything. So if you are some fchat blowhard that's gonna reply saying I'm trying to convince people to dump their Ferraris, save it!

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The program has been just as intensive in the physical stages, with over 50 prototypes built for an exhaustive test program around the globe. The development team has tested the 12C XPs (experimental prototypes) in a soon-to- be one million mile test program encompassing every regional market in which the car will be sold. The program also replicated F1 testing where a car and a team of 20-30 engineers and technicians maximize track time during the day and work on improvements overnight. The principle is ‘why test one thing when you can do ten’. A major part of the program was a six-week trip to IDIADA, where prototypes were tested for 18 hours a day (08:00- 02:00), seven days a week. “The night shift enabled cars to be serviced and any changes added for the next day’s test,” explains Geoff Grose, head of testing and development. “We have tested in the Arctic for cold weather programs, Bahrain for extreme hot-weather cycles in 50°C, South Africa for altitude, and a huge amount of road and track time at proving grounds and race tracks across UK and Europe, including the Nürburgring,” adds Grose. For UK testing, regular trips were made to Rockingham, MIRA, Cranfield, Millbrook, and nearby Dunsfold. European trips were made also made to Nardò and IDIADA. The tests include engineers from the Woking test team, as well as from key suppliers. Up to 80 people attend each test and each morning there is a conference call with MTC to review progress and incorporate new learning into the engineering and development process, and decide what needs to be tested on the simulator.
Durability tests undertaken by Grose’s team included a corrosion cycle that saw the 12C subjected to days in a high- humidity climatic chamber followed by long runs around IDIADA’s banked circuit, salt baths, and salt sprays. Further work included extended mileage to explore the engine, gearbox, and chassis’ resilience under extreme dynamic conditions. Extensive road mileage has also been accumulated on roads around the Woking HQ.
Most lab tests, especially dyno tests, are undertaken by development partners such as Millbrook and MIRA, but as Ben Gulliver, development manager, explains, some vehicle systems work is now being done internally. “We have some of our own capability for running rig tests and system or component durability tests. We have recently moved that capability in-house, inside the MTC itself, which we use for quasi-static strength tests and durability tests.
“We share equipment with the F1 team. We have a sister department in racing that has similar capability – not identical because then they can share our resources and we regularly use their equipment. We do everything with the highest quality and apply the same rigor to the road car work as the race car programs – this makes it interchangeable.”
Gulliver adds that the team’s expertise has even spread to suppliers’ test technology, “We have developed a bit of a first with a supplier – we have combined an engine and transmission chassis dyno effectively. We put it into the rear structure of the car, and then put road loads into it so we have the whole rear of the vehicle moving as it would in a full-vehicle test, controlled by the same controllers as the vehicle. So its an overall powertrain system test that we do in parallel to the road cars doing the same activity, which increases the sample size and the rigor we have for signoff.”
With the development and testing regime approaching its climax, the team revisited all the test programs and cycles with the last batch of XP-Beta prototypes, built in late summer 2009. These cars incorporated many changes garnered from the XP development program and are close to production-ready. This validation phase will lead to final certification in each of the 12C’s global markets.
The next step, which started in January 2010, is the production of 26 validation prototype (VP) cars. These cars are being used to continue certain aspects of the test program, and to validate the results and enable certification in world markets ready for the 12C going on sale in late 2010. Importantly, they also test the production process.
“The 12C will be a combination of intelligent, thorough and innovative design, with an accelerated, rigorous and relentless testing regime,” concludes Grose. “The testing and development process is not straightforward: it is a question of how much you learn from it by asking the right questions, and then how good and how quick you are at implementing that learning.

 

Those of you a few miles from the dealer are the lucky ones. I know because I'm two miles from the Vegas Ferrari dealer and I know what that means. I certainly worry less than the average guy if something should pop up.

But I just wonder how a guy in New Orleans would get service from a dealer in Miami or Dallas. They've picked the biggest markets for sure but on the other hand, there's a lot of empty space out there in between them.

Also the original F1 was a maintenance monster. Of course this car has no clutch but also in McLaren's anal way of thinking "perfect" all the time, I wonder what the running costs are. The 458 and California are both very reasonable for an exotic car in their price range.

If you're far from a dealer and it has a rather exact maintenance schedule, it could be quite a hassle. Maybe it isn't. I just don't know and I bet a lot of people would be curious on what the plan is.

 

The demo cars should arrive in the USA in April or so I believe. Maybe August, I can't recall which of the two I was told.

here are some pics of Fire Black, looks GOOD! I put in carbon black but may change. Waiting for more pictures when the european deliveries begin.

EDIT: the site is reducing the resolution of the pictures, hard to see the underlying bronzish tones. PM me if you want the full resolution pictures.
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I will say I would not be buying this car if I wasn't within a 100 mile range of the dealer. Too much hassle involved for sure. Fortunately I am about 40mi so its a non issue. I can understand holding out for more dealerships for sure, service is just a reality for these cars and you don't want to be hours away. I think they picked the right spots for the first year in the US to get the most population with the least number of new dealer openings.

 

I think it is fair to say McLaren understands the target customer as having a different tolerance level than F1 owners. Plus if option pricing is any indication, they are making commendable efforts to appeal to economics.

bdelp you have invested so much time trying to refute Mac's business plan on every 12C thread and raising questions (albeit a few of them good ones) that it definitely seems like more than a passing interest. Since I don't believe you have plans to ever buy a McLaren product I'm just wondering why you are so interested? Please don't take as an attack- I enjoy our debates, but just wondering why the constant involvement on your part? Cheers.

 

Sorry for delay guys: The manager at Park Place in Dallas told me 2 years/unlimited mileage. Glad to hear that it might be 3 years.

Regarding service: My McLaren dealership is 110 miles away. The Ferrari dealership is 125 miles away. McLaren is offering me free pick up and delivery. So - It isn't an issue for me.

 

... before we get to it, though, a couple of fun facts.
Demostrators available in August at Miller.
40 cars this year, 60 in full production year (at Miller again). The follow-through on expression-of interest has been outstanding (one cancellation) as opposed to the typical rate of 30-40% for new exotics (MIller's claim).

They are gonna put on a hospitality event at Canadian GP with drivers meet-and-greet.
No European Delivery just yet.
Miller's planning some track event for new owners.

Ok, my car:
Volcano Orange
Super-light Forged wheels- shadow finish-black calipers
Standard splitter/diffuser
Lightweight exhaust
CF mirror, engine bay panels, engine covers, sills, interior upgrade
Standard/technical fabric: black with McLAren orange accents: I am even trying to get rid of leather on the dash-board. Not clear yet if it's possible.
Brakes- unclear yet, waiting for confirm on CC replacement costs.
Track-pack unclear yet
Iris
Standard seats/contrasting stitching
3 year warranty
November build/ Dec delivery - willing to wait a couple of months for track pack.

 

Come on, don't scare him away. We cannot just sit here and pat ourselves on our collective backs. We need somebody to argue with.

 

Thanks. Great pics. This is exactly like my specs...with two color all leather interior black/saddle. I'll PM you for the high res pics.

 

No I have no interest in buying one. But for sure I appreciate the car but even more than that the difficulty of entering and being successful in the US market. If you look at most of my posts, they relate to the problems I see of brand recognition and the difficulty to get customers for a start up company. As a businessman, I find it interesting. I also find the technology interesting and how that relates to the real world experience.

I know a lot of you are totally enamored with the technology. I find that interesting too but my question is -- what does this technology mean on the street where 99.9% of all miles will be created? Does it make the experience better? Maybe -- I just don't know.

I think the F1 is one of the greatest cars ever made. I wonder if the son of F 1 will be a success in the market or just another curiosity. Some see my questions as negative. Well, to some degree, they are. They're questions that need to be answered IMO if someone is going to seriously consider this car over it's rather excellent rivals already in the market.

 

I am. Dealer said he wouldn't let me take it without clear bra and skid plates.

 

What do think about the odd lightweight wheels on that black fire 12C? I'm probably going with the standard or super lightweight wheels in stealth finish. Also, what's the benefit of the Iris Nav for $6,850? Dealer says there's blue tooth without it.

 

The technology will be easily felt on the street. Monkey's video explained it pretty clearly. You should be able to feel the lighter weight and the stiff structure in how the car reacts to inputs. There is a danger that McLaren will lard the experience with a ton of electronics to allow crazy on-track performance. Hopefully, this stuff will not get in the way.

As to your last, question, I think the answer is very obviously: Yes. Anybody putting money down on the Macca is not (typically) getting the rivals. Without this car around, I would have been almost certain to take Italia despite all my reservations.

 

But again, that's my point. If this car is going to be more than a curiosity for those bored or pissed off with Ferrari, it has to attract a market larger than that. That's enough for the first year but what about after that? How are they going to convince first time buyers of an exotic to not buy something else and buy this instead? That's what I'm trying to figure out because to me, there isn't a big enough market for what Ron Dennis is putting into it here.


You have to say: "I want the Mac and I don't want a Ferrari or a Lambo" as a first time buyer. I can see someone saying they want a Lambo over the Ferrari because the styling is outrageous. I'm having a tough time trying to figure out how an unknown brand in the US is going to get to that status level.

And I'm not convinced a few hundred pounds of weight mean anything short of the track. Maybe it is... But I don't think most could see any difference as they putter around town. I have the same issue with the 458 BTW.

 

Well, if it's an aspirational buy of long-term Ferrari dreamers, then the weight or anything for that matter does not matter. They will go for Ferrari. The product is more directed towards performance geeks like ourselves who track every little detail about cars in every car magazine the world over. My contention, though is that over time, if Ferrari gets consistently creamed by McLaren in all performance tests, the Ferrari aura will fade and aspirations will change. Nothing is forever.

 

But again, when has Ferrari NOT been creamed by it's competitors and they still sold cars. History is against you.

No, McLaren needs to be more than just technically superior to Ferrari to have long term success. And, at that price and being a new manufacturer, they DO need to give the "Lexus" experience because people will not give them the pass they give on Ferrari's BS.

 

The dealer tells me that they designed the car as a world car, so all the specs apply in North America. In other words, no weight gain from federalization. I have trouble believing it, but that's what he says.

 

As a make? They never have been. There are and always have been slow Porsches, Lambos, etc. Top line Ferraris (Enzo, F40, etc) have always been faster than the competition. This era has now officially come to a close.

 

There were faster and arguably better cars than the 308, 328, 348, 355, 360, and 430 when they were in the market -- and yet they still sold. The 911 was a ton better than the Dino gt.

The McLaren F 1 is far, far faster than the Enzo which came out years after it. It didn't matter then and it doesn't today. Both are highly praised and appreciated. I don't remember anyone saying about the Enzo, "well I'm not buying one because the F 1 is so much better."

Anyway, you guys asked why I'm so interested so im giving you the answer. It's because I think they are going to have a long term problem and I'm trying to figure out what they've done wrong so far (IMO, not aggressive enough styling) and how they are going to get
around the obvious problem of expanding the market.

 

These are individual models, not makes. That's the big difference. Ferrari is synonymous with top performance. It cannot afford to lose it. That's why it cheats on all those tests so much more than anybody else. Long-term, they are going to have a problem unless they respond. It's gonna be very expensive, though.