Tire recommendation for Tracking the Scud Please

For the moment i only used the standard pzero corsa system to track the car, and to use it street and track i found them quite ok.. the only problem is that if you make serious track driving after one,maximun two days they are over.. I don't know if other owners have ever tried alternatives,since these Pirelli are developed for Scuderia specs, but I saw on Geneva car show that Pirelli is Launching the Pzero Trofeo, and it seems much more track oriented than the Corsa!

Another solution I heard is to mount the Pzero design we have in the rear tyres,in the front too, with the asymmetric design in the front too. This should work worse on the wet,but they say quite better in the dry and the front grip is increased.

 

What do you mean the tires were terrible? Be careful using any tires or rims not designed for the car - it can really get you in trouble with handling. If you run enough laps any tire will wear - especially the fronts from the camber - they will wear on the inside from the fast straights

 

Everything but cst-off will increase wear on front tires, and produce slower laps.

Some things to do before tracking a Scuderia, decent brake fluid, track pads for the CCB, alignment and corner weight. The cars come with a messed up alignment that doesn't match the stock specs, and the stock specs are bad for the track.

I'm running 235/35 and 295/30 R888, with the car ride height adjusted to have the factory rake. I use stiffer springs, because the stock springs are too soft for track use, this allows the car to run lower in height without compromising suspension travel or geometry (low suspension travel due to stiff springs).

Not too many tire choices in 19". You need custom wheels ( I use HRE Competition that are wider and lighter than stock) and there are nice options for tires, once you go wider.

On the stock wheels, you can run Hoosier R6 235/35 and 295/30 R19, but these tires are not good for street use. You can also run Michelin and Pirelli slicks, but they require stiffer springs.

For the occasional track day, the 235/295 R888 help reduce the understeer (plus driving style, using cst-off, proper alignment), and they can be driven back and forth. I use these tires as my street tires. I may switch to a pure street tire next (RE-11) as I always end up using the track/autoX wheels with the good tires anyway.

Enjoy the Scuderia.

 

Correct, the 295/30R19 R888 has a smaller diameter than stock, but it is within the electronics tolerance, and all the electronics work perfectly (slippery, sport, race, ct-off, cst-off, abs, e-diff, f1 track). You will need to lower the front by 10mm to adjust rake if you switch to 235/295 R888, just 4 turns on the front spring perches, remember to use wd-40 on the shocks tread before moving the collars, and do so with the wheels removed, sway bar disconnected (lots of preload stock) and the axle unloaded.

The 305 R888 is too wide for the stock 10" rear wheels.

The R888 requires a lot higher pressures, I run 38 hot front and 40 hot rear, they have an arrow that indicates the wear. They also need more negative camber, ideally -3.0 front and -2.5 rear for street/track use. I set my front toe to zero, rear toe at the factory setting (0.25 degrees per side). For street use, I run the R888 at 40 psi cold.

The stock Scuderia alignment has too much toe-in in the front, more camber in the rear than the front, it promotes understeer. The standard F430 alignment is even worse, even more toe-in and less negative camber. As usual, the cars come with alignment out of specs from the factory, and that's not adjusted when cars are delivered, but most Ferrari drivers won't notice a car out of alignment specs. Always get a print-out before and after doing an alignment.

Don't pay attention to comments regarding increased wear on tires due to lots of negative camber, toe is what kills tires more than camber, and the stock alignment settings actually wear the tires much more than the settings I'm using, despite of my settings producing better performance by being able to use the tires better.

As usual, flip the R888 according to your usage, so you wear the inner and outer tread evenly until a set is done. R888 are ok for 24 heat cycles, they won't heat cycle on the streets unless your drive them hard (and any track tire will do the same), they exceed the performance of the Pirelli Corsa system OEM tires drastically, they are pretty good in the rain as well. With the right supplier, the R888 are about half the price of the pirelli oem
corsa system.

Pirelli will have a track tire on Scuderia sizes available soon, the Pirelli Trofeo. No idea on prices, and no idea on performance either. The Toyo R888 is being used as the Spec tire in multiple race series, including the Speed World Challenge where Porsche, Vettes, Vipers, Ford GT, etc see the action at multiple tracks around U.S.

Get the camber shims at a Ferrari parts dealer, I bought about $500 worth of them in multiple sizes.

 

Very Helpful!

I tried the R888 on other cars, and I always liked them, perfect for track and very sincere on the street and wet too. Never thought to use them here,due to the different sizes. The Trofeo are going to be available soon, I think I'll test them.

Do you know where i can find the sheet with every alignment and heights for road/track use car? My car came with standard Specs for Scuderia and i Chacked them, but actually for the track is too conservative. I know Ferrari found the perfect alignment for Scuderias for track use (the one that are on Ferrari Corsa clienti cars) but apparently it's a bit too extreme for the street,with very strange reactions.

Thanx Fede

 

I always start with the stock alignment specs, removing any toe-in in the front axle, and adding the camber I know works for the tires I use. In the Scuderia I have used the OEM Pirelli Corsa, 2 sets of R888, and multiple sets of Hoosier A6 in different sizes. I know the Hoosiers and R888 require a minimum of -2.5 degrees camber.


With the stock alignment it understeers too much. With different tires (smaller rear or bigger front) it still understeers. I started at stock specs, -2.5 camber all around, 0 toe front, stock toe-in rear, and there still was understeer but largely reduced compared to stock. Currently I run -2.9 front camber and -2.5 at the back, I use stiffer sway bars from Novitec (the rear is even larger helping reduce understeer), and the car is about neutral.

As always, I check my tire temperatures after a hot lap or spirited drive, to gauge the camber and tire pressures.

The R888 drops about 1 sec per minute of track time compared to the stock Corsa system, so on a 2 minutes lap, expect to drop 2 secs of your times. At a track like the Nurburgring they should help drop 7 secs, probably more.

 

thanks!

i'm sorry when you speak about camber,do you mean per side or total? I think per side..
Another issue i noticed, now the car has around 9000km (6000 miles) and it lowered a bit in the front,maybe due to track use (in braking you use more front springs) and remained the same on the rear.. I suppose i have to set it flat againg!

federico

 

camber is to be identical per side (unless you're racing ovals like NASCAR, they have asymmetric cars and alignments).

Start with this:

Front: 0 toe, -2.5 camber
Rear: 0.25 degrees toe-in per side (0.50 degrees total toe), -2.0 camber

This would be a good 75% street use, 25% high speed street/track use.

If you want a more track oriented setup, do -3.0 camber front and -2.5 camber rear.

The F430 race teams advice positive rake, a 20mm higher rear than front, it is ok if the car is lower at the front. I use the rocker panels to measure ride height, as they're just 5mm below the factory recommended reference points to measure ride height (too much hassle to measure at the factory recommended reference points).

Stock Scuderia ride height is 114mm front and 136mm rear (measured from the lowest part of the body frame at each axle outer edge)

 

Thanx,I'll try this set up,since in 15 days i'll be back on the track..

Maybe the springs just adapted and now the car is on the right heights,i'll check it out later..

 

I took my car today,and looking what the guys did for set up:

Camber front -2, this is the maximun they achieved with standard bolts..
Camber rear -2.5 it was close to that already from the set up i had on my car..

Toe in 0 front and 0.05 per side, 0.10 total (this is different to what you suggested me,but it was actually in the standard Scud setting!?)

initially it was quite the same at the rear, just added camber in the front,and toe in reduced in the front too.

The only problems was with heights: actually the front is 30 mm lower than the rear! and noone ever touched it! i don't know why it is like that now,but anyway i think is not going to be a big issue..

Thanx Fede

 

Actually, ride height delta (rake) between front and rear axle is a big issue. You can feel the handling difference with just two turns on the spring collars (+/-5mm change on axle height). Race teams use 20mm higher rear than front, same for Challenge cars, same for the factory settings, I have tried 30mm rake to cure understeer and the car still pushes, but loses rear traction on corner exit. Don't re-invent the wheel.

Front camber is important, you need 0.5 more negative camber in the front compared to the rear, instead you have less camber front (promoting understeer).

The F430 suspension is so well designed, that it doesn't need toe-in in the front, 0 toe saves the front tires (they tend to run hotter than the rear) and reduces understeer as well.

The front standard bolts are long enough to achieve -5.0 degrees negative camber, so have that checked, what they need is camber shims.

If you are running 0.10 degrees total toe-in at the rear, (0.05 per side), that's really bad. It will make the car very unstable under heavy braking, and it will reduce the speed on corner exit, as the loaded car tends to toe-out due to flex on the bushings and geometry on the rear short toe link.

 

This is my latest setup and works nice on street and track.

FRONT
Cam 1.9-2.0
Toe 0
450 lb springs
1 finger gap between tire and fender (normal scud ride height is 2 fingers)

REAR
Cam 2.0
Toe 1mm per side
600 lb springs
1 finger

OEM bars and 430 challenge adjustable end links like F430GT recommended.

I have front and rear cf 16M diffusers and cf head lamps and KS exahust so I had to corner weight the car again,and now it is perfect...

 

Thank you for the information..
I'll have the rake adjusted so, i'll lower the rear too!

For camber in the front actually i checked when they were doing my car and there are already 2 shims per side,and the bolts were already almost at the end.. :-(

About toe in at the rear i was very perplexed too,but that was the standard setting for Scud they had on the database,so they just set it to the standard.. I don't know!!

Anyone has standard setting for scuds??

thanx Fede

 

That shop doesn't seem to know the Scuderia that well. The washer between the lower front control arm and the nut can be installed between the lower control arm and the frame, it acts as a permanent spacer, but I prefer to use the factory shims instead.

In addition to this, the studs in the lower control arms are adjustable in length (I didn't need to extend the length on them).

Over a dozen sources including ALMS teams, F430 Challenge support teams, Ferrari dealers, Ferrari club racers, myself can't be wrong with the rear toe. Get your car to an trusted shop.

 

this shop is a Ferrari Dealer, and unfortunately I know very well they don't know cars AT ALL!! that's for sure.. :-( but i didn't think till the point of not being able to set a camber..
the problem is here Ferrari is a very exclusive brand to show in front of clubs and restaurant,not so much as a track car! depressive.....................

 

Can somebody tell me if you need to remove the rear diffuser on the scud to take the rear ride height measurements? Its not clear to me from the factory manual pics (see below).
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Yes, you need to remove the rear diffuser to measure ride height at the back.

Measure ride height at the four corners, then measure distance from the center of the wheel to the fender lip. If you need to make an adjustment later on, just use the distance from the wheel center to the fender lip at each corner, and adjust up/down.

Each full turn on the front or rear spring perches is a 1.5mm raise/drop on the damper, but given the motion ratio (.571 front axle, .564 rear axle), a full turn would increase/decrease ride height by 2.6mm.

In regards to the tires advice from a year ago, I'm done with R888. The RE-11 proved consistently to be as fast as the R888 (both of them faster than the OEM Pirelli Corsa System R-compound), but the RE-11 lasts longer than the OEM Pirelli Corsa and much longer than the R888, with the RE-11 being affordable. The downside of the RE-11 is that it is rated as a 168mph tire, so if you plan to consistently run beyond these speeds, do not use the RE-11 and stick to the OEM tires. 168 mph of actual speed shows up on the Scuderia speedometer as 181 mph.

 

Thanks GT.

I had my car lowered to 5mm below the factory settings (the lowest of the tolerance). My dealer also set the geometry at OE settings. Car was very planted espec at high speed. Was happy with it for my driving (predominantly street).

As it was a new car it settled a bit and it was also a little impractical with our crappy roads and speed bumps in the UK so I asked my dealer to raise it by 5mm so it was at the exact factory setting (its still around 10mm lower than most scuds Ive seen). Geometry was redone but now at above 110mph I am getting some wandering in the steering which wasnt there previously. Feels like there are gusts blowing the car from side to side but there are none. It definitely isnt the road. Is this likely to be geometry discrepancy or the fact that there is more air under the car?