do i need a real estate lawyer?

George,
This is not my area of expertice but it might be worth every penny in the long run depending on how complicated the transfer was?

 

c'mon. It's three or four hours work for a lawyer or an accountant.

$4K seems a little steep.

JOE ZAFF, chime in here.

D

 

use a lawyer. If not this guy, someone else, but pay someone to cross all the "T's" and dot the "I's". It will be important later that it is done right now.

 

I don't know the attorney's hourly rate to know if his retainer is excessive. If the guy charges $100.00 an hour, it would seem a little steep, if he is charging $400 and hour, maybe not. Also, every case has its own wrinkles and without knowing the specifics of his situation, I can't really comment on the appropriateness of the fee.

 

We operate a litigation firm not a transactional firm, so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt.

For all I know this fee may be standard practice in Maryland or in this area of the law, but unless there is some peculiarity to Maryland law, he is likely going to do the same amount of work if the house costs 100K or 500K, so why should his fee be tied to the home's value? Before you agree to anything, you should at least try and see if a Maryland attorney will do it at an hourly rate and then get a quote to compare. During your conversation, you should ask him or her to identify all of the work he anticipates performing, any obstacles he could foresee, what fees and costs could he anticipate having, etc. Also ask if he will do the work on a flat fee (assuming that is permissible in Maryland). It may turn out that it is cheaper to do it on percentage than hourly, but you owe it to yourself to verify. The only benefit to this percentage nonsense, is you have the security of knowing the fee is capped (but you may be able to get a flat fee from another attorney that is a better value).

Personally, I think the percentage thing is a great example of why people justifiably hate attorneys. Instead of working hard to grow their business by meeting client expectations, they come up with ever new and creative ways to squeeze out an extra penny.
--Off the soapbox now.

Good luck!

 

Here in the Baltimore metro area, the good ones get around $ 300.00 an hour.

 

The fees in estate settlements are limited by law to a certain percentage of the total value. Sounds like this is what he's using.

The lawyers who handled my Mother's estate tried that with me. When they told me what their fee wasn't going to exceed I snapped, "Maybe half that, maximum, as I'm doing all the work!" Trying to rip off folks by charging the statutory max is, in my opinion, unethical, and just a pre-set rip off game perpetuated by SOME lawyers in the racket of handling estates.

You don't need an estate lawyer, this is a simple transaction that, I suspect, any decent accountant could guide you through.

D

 

The simple and complex answer is no, frankly, hell no.
Do a little research for Maryland. I have found Probate office staff some of the best civil servants you will encounter. They will walk you through the process.
The deed can be drawn by a title company clerk or a competent real estate person for a very nominal fee. You can record it yourself.
You have not described the Estate. Are you the only heir? Is there a valid will? What is(are) your personal expertise(s).
Are you willing to do a little work? Do you have the time?
There is a proper time and place for legal counsel-by the hour. The hold-up day of a percentage of the Estate is over. Pennsylvania has even incorporated that fact in Estate Probate procedures. Google Maryland Probate for info-you will be amazed at the data out there.
AND-it is really neat to learn something new-so empowering.
I am a CPA-but, trust me, other than some tax return filing techniques, more style than substance, I just learned via doing my father-in-law's Estate Probating and return filing, the process. Once the misty veil lifts from gaining a little knowledge, you will be surprised how easy a simple Estate is to Probate. Now, I am NOT suggesting the Estate of Bill Gates would be a layup. And, yes it would need legal counsel with expertise in that field. Do you think Bill Gates will allow legal counsel or any other form of counsel to charge a percentage or "flat fee" to assist in the Probate of his Estate?
It all depends on your willingness to engage in the process.
As I always like to conclude, you have one more opinion to weigh.

 

With that perspective on cost and if it's a very simple estate transfer, then I would say it's steep.

Not knowing all of the info it's hard to dole out good advice. I'd talk to the Regiser of Wills office In Baltimore and see what they require? They shuold have a punchlist of things you'd need to do. Then ask yourself, how much of the legwork are you willing to do.
When I settled my dad's estate...it was pretty simple and not worth the $ 10,000.00 plus 3% the attorney wanted to charge me, though I was dealing with Baltimore County.

Baltimore City seems to have a twist around every corner with hidden surprises when you navigate their system.

 

george, I think you have my cell number call me. If i understand your message, you are simply the beneficiary of a piece of real estate from an estate. no estate lawyer needed. Why isn't the estate's lawyer handling sending YOU the deed and assignment documents? As the beneficiary, you can't draft it anyhow. The estate will want to handle it on their own and include an agreement of sale to verify the terms of the transfer......e.g., as-is condition, state of title, etc.

as for the the BS lawyer comments from the PN gallery, recognize that if a lawyer is permitted to charge a fix of a percentage which you guys deem high, dont bust the lawyer's balls. it's his choice to ask whatever he wants up to the cap. if you dont like it, go elsewhere. But don't claim he has a moral obligation to charge you cheapos what you think is fair. Whether you walk in to Raymour and Flanigan for a sofa, or a hospital for an operation, the vendor is going to charge the highest amount it is legally permitted to charge. If you dont like it, move on to the next of 1 billion hospitals or furniture stores.

george, call me. i can explain

 

+1 As my post reflects, I agree with everything you are saying...to a point. A lawyer can charge whatever he wants, you are correct, my advice was to look elsewhere before agreeing and see if he can find another attorney willing to do the same work, with the same level of competence, for less.

Personally, I do take a real issue with my fellow attorneys taking a percentage of a deal in lieu of a traditional fee unless it is (1) in the contingency fee context, (2) where the percentage in lieu of a traditional fee allows the client to offset the risk that the hourly rate could be excessive, (3) or where a client accepts the percentage to come out at the backend because he cannot afford or rather not front a retainer or flat fee.

In George's context, the percentage almost always allows the lawyer to capture a larger fee than he would if he charged an hourly rate. The client receives no real or perceived benefit to this fee arrangement.

Just my .02

 

Joe,

In the REAL world, people get to charge whatever the market will bear, not the statutory MAXIMUM allowed.

Estate work has a cap, I'm assuming, so that widows can't be overcharged by ruthless attorneys, or at least I betcha that's the reasoning that was used, when a bunch of lawyers wrote the law originally.

Lawyers have an obligation to behave in an ethical manner. WE can play letter of the law games all day, but do you really think it's ethical to charge a rate that gives you a multiple of your regular rate, and then fall back on the crutch of "the law says I can" if you're doing estate work?

Sure, he can shop it around, but if you've never been involved in settling an estate, you'd have no idea if what was being asked was reasonable. And in this instance, it doesn't look like it was.

Just sayin', in this instance, it looks, on the surface, like this particular lawyer was doing his best to take full advantage of the statute, instead of doing what's right.

Dave

 

This phrase "doing what's right" catches the essence of my point. Many may say that your company, Dave, charges too much for the photomounts and other materials and services you provide. You should start doing what those people think is "doing the right thing". charge them less.

There's a reason the statute exists with a scale based on a percentage basis because there are MANY MANY issues in an estate transaction which fluctuate based on the size of the estate. Charging an hourly rate KILLS a client because then the lawyer can bill hours until his heart's content to close the estate. Charging a % based on the size of the estate limits the exposure.

A realtor may charge 6% commission based on the sale of a piece of real estate. if you beat them up, they will take 5%, 4% or even less and some do it based on a sliding scale based on value. But, don't bust balls on the guy who charges 6% and the client pays 6%.

my $.02

 

I don't know much about the gory details of the legal profession- and you know i luv you guys ... but doesn't something seem fundamentally wrong when a "simple" transfer of title like this should consume 5% of the asset's value?

Just seems out of the "value box" to me.

My .01 cents (voluntarily discounted for ignorance)

Erik

 

I'm not an attorney, but I play one on TV. I can tell you from the bank's side, that often times the seemingly most "simple" of transactions end up having the highest legal fees. Does the property in question have a UST (underground storage tank for heating oil)? What is the previous use(s) of the site? What is the status of all liens including taxing authorities, utilities, mechanics, and financial institutions? Is the building meeting code? Is there a tenant in the property? Are they current on rent? Have they damaged or made modifications to the property that the owner must repair to either re-rent or sell the property? The transfer of the property will likely trigger a new inspection that may result in a punch list of improvements that the new owner MUST comply with. Some of these concerns will be handled by getting the proper title insurance, but some will not.

George, I am amazed at the amount of advice you are receiving from non-legal types (myself included, I guess) when there is so little known about the transaction - essentially we know it's a house worth $85M in Baltimore and the current owner is deceased......uhhhhh, OK. There is obviously a wealth of "opinion" here as well as good friends who have qualified advice. The legal issues surrounding probate may be the least of your concerns in the transaction. Having said all of that, maybe it is a totally clean, compliant, wonderful money-maker that could fairly be handled for $2,000. A good attorney is going to know that even the most simple of transactions will take 8 hours of time including follow-up. Also keep in mind that the estate's attorney does NOT represent you. Generally, you get what you pay for in legal services. The problem I see most people get into is that they don't want to pay legal fees until it becomes painfully obvious that they need an attorney. Then they can't understand why it costs them so much to fix the original problem, plus all of the others they created on their own. I would suggest seeking an attorney who is willing to work on an hourly basis, discuss exactly what is included in the services he/she is providing, and agree to a cap for the total transaction. Yet having said that, I have never seen a transaction come in under the cap, but your experience may vary. My$.02 - good luck.

Dave

 

I have been an estate attorney for over 20+ years. In addition to a law degree, I have a Masters of Law in taxation.
My practice is limited to wills, trusts, tax & estate planning.
I have NEVER charged an hourly rate for handling an administration, but rather a % of the value of the assets one is inheriting.
gnbn, you say you weren't related to the decedent. Consider yourself lucky.
I am sorry for your loss, but why NOT pay an experienced attorney to help you out?
I charge even more when a "self help" client walks in and wants me to fix the mess they made of an estate because they were too cheap or greedy to hire a lawyer in the first place.

Cheers