Is my F1 pump failing?

Hi everyone, wondering if anyone has had experience with these symptoms. '98 355F1, 30k miles, usually drives great. Recently have noticed that when the underhood temps rise, as in one time when I was stuck in stop and go traffic, or once recently when I started and warmed up the car for 10-15 mins in the garage in anticipation of taking a friend out in the car (didn't want to have to do the 10 mins of warming up with him, thought it would be nicer to let the car warm up first, then go for a drive) that the transmission starts to shift a lot less smoothly and noticeably more slowly. In the instance where the car was idling in the garage for 10-15 minutes, the car didn't even want to go into reverse. I could hear it trying, but just wouldn't engage reverse. It would get 1st, 2nd, etc, but even then wouldn't get reverse.

In all of these situations, sitting stopped and engaging 1st gear, gear engages with a thump, rather than the usual click. Moreover, when releasing the brake pedal while in 1st gear, the car will "creep" ever so slowly forward. When pulling away from a stop, clutch lets out in a jerky fashion, rather than the usual smooth engagement/disengagement. It's as if the clutch disc were not being clamped hard enough by the pressure plate. This would also explain why the car doesn't want to engage the (unsynchronised) reverse gear.

After parking the car a day or so, and letting everything "rest", the car will be drivable the next day, though often a little bit clunky when shifting. After 1-2 days of non-stressed driving, where the underhood temps don't get too hot, the whole thing goes back to normal, with smooth shifts and just a "click" when engaging first or reverse while stopped. Clutch has never slipped, though I suppose that could be a factor. The clutch wear was read on the SD2 recently and reportedly had a lot of life left in it. That was when I first brought this situation up with my tech, who suggested as a first, simple measure that we bleed the F1 system, as maybe all this was related to an air bubble in the system.

Since that time, again I have experienced the hot shifting issue, so I do plan to go back to my tech for the next step of diagnosis. I just want to have an idea of whether or not anyone else has experienced this before, and if this might be the sign of a failing F1 pump. I can imagine that the pump motor is overheating in these instances, and that is the cause of the symptoms.

I am aware of the Hill Engineering kit to adapt the 360 pump to 355's, and that this is a far superior pump than the one on my car. I'm not opposed to spending the money for that repair, if that solves this issue, but don't want to spend this money and still have the hot shifting issue if this doesn't sound like a bad pump.

As I said, I will be seeing my tech again soon, but I would appreciate any ideas from any of you out there who might have dealt with this situation before, so that I have an idea of what I'm in for.

Thanks all,

John

 

F1 light has never flashed during these occurrences. I read somewhere that normal pump priming time is supposed to be something like 15-20 seconds, and mine is right at 20 seconds to prime on first start up. I was thinking heat soak too, which is why I gave such detail to the scenarios above. Honestly, it hadn't crystallized as heat-related when I tried to explain to my tech what exactly was happening the first go 'round. So I think his thoughts of air in the system were pretty reasonable.

Clutch wear may indeed be a contributing factor, but as I said, never has slipped. However, while it never has slipped in the "rising revs" sense, it HAS shown me the flashing gear a time or two, indicating slippage. This has not happened though during the events I earlier described. So I'm sort of confused still...

 

Update: Drove the car today (cool day) and it was just beautiful!! No issues at all, smooth shifting, smooth clutch engagement/dis-engagement. Engaging first or reverse while at a standstill I only hear a "click", rather than a "clunk". No creep in gear.

As to the relay Taz, mine is the newer type, but is a couple years old.

Finally, Jay, I did the "key on, motor off" thing, and just like before, 20 seconds to prime, then pump stays off for 3 minutes (ie: system holding pressure) then re-primes for 2-3 seconds.

So, I'm still confused as to what is going on. Today's driving is typical behavior for the car. I just wonder what it is doing when the underhood temps go up and the shifting/clutch action gets clunky. Still think it could be heat-soak, but wondering if this would be worsening due to an old or failing pump motor.

Experts?

John

 

Ali, thanks for sharing your experiences. I am looking forward to hearing your opinion of the new 360 pump once it's installed. I hope to hear good things from you...

Since my last update, I have had the opportunity to discuss this all with my tech. As I said before, when I last described the occasional symptoms to him, I hadn't yet made the connection between heat and the bad F1 behavior. So this time, having figured out that connection, when I described the situation again to him, along with the relationship to high underhood temps, he agreed that this sounded like heat-soak at the pump motor, and also he felt that this is indeed an early sign of pump failure. So, I am figuring to replace the pump soon with the 360 pump/H E adapter kit, especially as summer approaches and underhood temps will be higher. Meanwhile, the car has been running flawlessly. Go figure.

Another piece of advice my tech had for me is that the Challenge grill may help somewhat with this situation as it should help reduce temps. Every little bit helps.

John

 

Would love to see pics of the new pump Blampee, thanks!

Did you guys use the Hill adapter? Any difficulties installing this, or was it what they expected? I'm not planning any DIY on this, so not fishing for instructions, just wondering if they commented that the adapter was an incomplete kit, or if the install required a bunch of time spent trouble-shooting (equals money, if you're paying for the labor). Frankly, the price of the pump and the adapter isn't that bad, just wondering if there's going to be a huge hidden cost. Do you recall how many hours they charged to install the pump?

Overall, it sounds like you definitely noticed an improvement in shift speed and quality, which sounds like a sign that the pump is better in terms of ability to repeatedly produce pressure before it fatigues (due to heat-soak).

Thanks again,

John

 

Great pics Blampee! I can see that Mark did a thorough and clean job. Thanks Daniel for linking the catalog of pictures.

It looks like Mark removed the whole F1 unit in order to install the pump and adapter. I'm curious whether that is required in order to install the new pump, or if that was done for the benefit of photography. Seems that would make install a longer process (at going shop rates). But if that's the proper way to do it, I guess that's what I should expect. Maybe Mark can comment on this topic. I don't want to put him or anyone in an uncomfortable position, so I'm OK if he chooses not to address that point. It's just that often after completing a project, there are those things we would do differently to make things easier if/when we do the same project the next time. So I wonder if he advises pulling the whole F1 system, or replacing the pump in-situ (in the car).

Thanks again all for your input,

John

 

Huzi,

I have not yet had the 360 pump installed in my car. My tech has been busy with prep of several cars for the Monterey week, followed by the Colorado Grand. So I'm getting it scheduled this coming week. Meanwhile, I just parked the car in the garage on the trickle charger so that I don't do any damage or find myself stranded somewhere.

I hope to have the car back in service in a week or so, with the new pump in the car. I also will have him check the clutch for wear again and replace if necessary.

I'll definitely post a follow-up to the situation as soon as I have one.

John

 

Follow-up:

Well, after Monterey, my guy Norbert at Gran Touring Classics got busy with the Colorado Grand (he looks after a number of STUNNING priceless cars) so I had a bit of a wait to get my 360 pump installed. Today I just got my 355 back, with the new pump installed. NIGHT AND DAY difference! The pump primes in less than 3-4 seconds. When the other dash lights go out at start up, so does the transmission icon stop flashing.

Turns out I drove it home today on a 95 degree day (SoCal) and the car shifted fast and smooth. I couldn't be happier. From rest, the clutch take up is amazingly smooth. The install looks factory-correct as well.

For any of you guys considering the upgrade, my 2 cents is that it is definitely worth it, especially if you have had anything but smooth shifting. The newer, more powerful pump will fix the problem of jerky shifting or heat soak. The Hill adaptor is well-made, but be warned that it isn't really a kit. A mounting bracket will need to be made, and the pipe fittings are supplied in brass that seems a little flimsy, as well as it seemed that an additional fitting or two was required. Given this, Norbert had them made in stainless steel, along with re-doing the supplied fittings also in stainless so that they are more robust. Less worry down the line for just a few bucks more. All these things make me realize that this upgrade is probably not a beginner's DIY kinda thing.

Oh, and the clutch shows 47% life remaining after I've had the car 19k miles (32k miles total, but not sure how old the clutch was at 13k when I bought the car). I'll bet most of that wear came during my first few thousand miles with the car. More proof that the F1 cars can keep a clutch going past 12k (or whatever number naysayers claim).

Thanks again to Norbert at Gran Touring for doing such a fantastic job on this upgrade!

John