Engine Failure

I hope so.

 

Their position is that the factory installed a broken/defective part? Even if that part wasn't the cause of this problem it is troubling to hear.

 

No, but my variator on my 360 failed and wrecked all 20 valves in half my engine. The variator that failed was replaced by Ferrari 4yrs ago under a campaign to replace the old type variators with the new "improved" type of variators as they had issues of the old style variators snapping.......Hence the new type variators are not much better than the old type and can still fail. So to answer your question I wouldn't be at all surprised that the new 430 headers won't also fail in future. However it doesn't sound like this is a major issue so perhaps a low risk?

The unfortunate truth of the matter is that a catastrophic failure could happen to anyone who owns any car, especially a Ferrari! They are not the most reliable car in the world. If the cars out of warranty it will be extremely hard to get any recourse from the OEM.

I really hope you get more assistance from Ferrari than I did. I didn't get a bean out of them. Not even a token gesture of a price reduction on parts! I investigated the path of litigation but unfortunately the odds of winning the case were slim to zero in my case. (A part replaced under recall by an "improoved part" that subsequently failed anyway 4yrs and less than 10k miles after installation). Looks like there is no justice for the small guy!

Best of luck and try and stay positive. It's only a car, a car can be fixed. At least its not your health.

 

Let's not make a generalisation of such a very exceptionnal engine failure. Most of the Ferrari engines are very reliable and especially the last models like the 360 and 430. Just look how many owners got well over 60.000 miles without any engine issues or header rebuilds. Bad luck can happen on any car including expensive Porsche, BMW, Mercedes etc. The weakness of the Ferrari cars is more on the external engine parts like headers, cats, F1 pumps etc which is, let say "affordable" to repair I.E., I never heard of a major lower part engine failure on any Ferrari.

But for those who experienced an important engine failure like expressed here, I do feel sorry! Law of Murphy ? "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong" doesn't apply here fortunately.

 

Man, Champ -- thats a beautiful car. Sad to see the pics with of her out of her element. Hopefully she will be back soon without too much stress or financial pain.

My thoughts are: could it have been some sort of chain reaction? What are the things we can absolutely deduce or little things that we are ignoring because we cannot explain them. What would Sherlock Holmes say?

Second: this does not sound like a Ferrari-exclusive issue. Any engine is going to fail if debris gets inside and bangs around like that. Perhaps this has happened to other marques on other forums? I am also on the Porsche forum but have never seen such a failure on a Carrera but maybe other members on other forums have heard similar stories in other cars?

 

I hope that Italy helps out as this looks like a campaign error at this point.

 

I'm overwhelmed at the moment. I'm seriously considering to get a 430, just sold my 05 G and boy I miss it. Am I getting all this correctly, previous posts states that headers are the weak points of 430, and maybe eventually most if not all will be replaced or repaired in the future with warranty or not. now if the original and or replacement headers cause this as what already happened in at least a couple of cars here on fchat, (we don't know other ones that are not documented). Am I correct to assume that there's good probability that this incident may happen again and it's just a matter of time.
Headers is the culprit!
I love the 430 anyways.

 

I cannot understand how a piece of metal from an exhaust will end up being sucked back into the engine? That has to be impossible.

Even when you lift off and use the engine to brake the car the piston is STILL going UP when the exhaust valve is open thus there is NO vacuum created and thus no way the exhaust gases will be going backwards. Also with a Ferrari they have an equal length collector system to promote proper cylinder scavenging and thus every time the exhaust valve opens the scavenging will cause any remaining gas to be exited from the cylinder.

Also lets be practical. Many hundreds maybe thousands of people have made some pretty crappy home made extractors or exhaust systems and many of them would likely be lousy welders. I again have never ever heard of metal from their welds, etc. ending up damaging an engine.

On top of that there have been many exhaust systems that have rusted out and again never heard of metal ending up in a cylinder.


ALSO I used to race an Alfa Sud with out air cleaners at all. Yes it was tarseal tracks but I never sucked anything of size into the engine, and on rebuilds the tops of the pistons would have minor marks from very small stones but this never cause a problem. This engine had 12:1 compression ratio ...

I reckon a valve broke before or after hitting a piston ... personally.
Pete

 

Apparently, it can happen Pete.

I remember reading here that 360's do it. I think Rifledriver posted that here before.

Also, I talked to Ferrarifixer ages ago about it and he confirmed it and also told me he has seen 430's that have done it also, causing engine damage like this.

So................that is what may have happened here. Especially if there is a piece missing from the header now.

Next time I talk to Ferrarifixer I will confirm again.

 

I am in need of some clarification on this situation. I, like many F430 owners, are following this thread not as a reality show, but out of genuine concern for ChampIII and our personal F430s. Knowledge is power.

My understanding is that there was a failure. But the facts as stated just are not very clear. I am sure I have just missed some important bits of information. So let me list my understanding of the issue from the facts in the thread. Then some wise person please set me straight.

1. While driving at 3500 ChampIII felt something strange. At 3000 RPM ChampIII heard some "clanking"
2. The dealer spotted a piece of metal in Cyl#8. After a very thorough investigation they determined the following facts:
A. There was a small piece of metal in Cyl #8. The Metal was attracted to a magnet and was thus a ferromagnetic alloy.
B. Multiple pistons had some type of visible impact marks (I count 3, all on 1x bank)
C. None of the Valves are bent or broken.
3. There were no foreign objects found in the intake
4. There were no foreign objects found in the exhaust catalytic converter. The stock cats would not pass a foreign object of any substantial size.
5. No specific mention of the cylinder liners being damaged. (likely assumption, but no confirmation)

Here are my questions:
My main concern based on the facts:Q1 How could one foreign object cause damage to more than one cylinder? The cats were empty of foreign objects as was the intake. There is no other escape path. The likelihood of a foreign object leaving one cal and re-entering another is slim because of the long intake runners with flutes on the intake side and the physical design of the exhaust manifold.

Q21: I am not sure I understand what the metal foreign object was impacting to make the clanking sound. I assume it would be the piston and either the valve or some part of the head which do not show marks or damage as far as the images show.

Q3. It seems strange that the Pistons could get marked without physical contact of the foreign object being sandwich between the piston and a valve. This type of sandwich would likely bend a valve. All valves look properly seated and do not exhibit marks. ChampIII states that no valves are bent.

Q4: It seems intuitive that there is damage, but as of yet I have not seen any damage mentioned. The F430 has liners (some engines do not, like my porsche flat 6), thus the two or more damaged liners can be replaced, and the crankcase upper unit could not have to be replaced. Liners are relatively inexpensive at $306 / ea. I realize labor costs are non-trivial. I am also assuming the pistons are not damaged, they tend to be quite resilient and are most likely fine.

If I have all of this information registered and processed correctly, the plug on Cyl #8 could have been removed, the foreign object could have been removed via telescoping magnetic pickup, and the vehicle could have been driven. If the liners are mildly scratched the oil pass by (blow by) might have been very minimal depending on oil weight.

Good luck ChampIII! You have a lot of people pulling for you, and I hope FNA does the right thing.

 

I know this will sound crazy, but what the hell...

You experience the problem and the car goes to the dealership. The mechanic opens up the engine and finds all the things you've mentioned. Now everyone is scratching their heads trying to figure out what happened, where the metal came from and the source of the clanking sound.

What if your engine has been like this for the last 2-3k miles and the clanking noise was coming from someplace other than the pistons? He said all of this is "not normal" - maybe something else is "not normal." Coincidence? Perhaps.

Wouldn't it be something if they do all this work, fire it up and hear the clanking sound?

Did the mechanics try starting up the car to hear the clanking sound for themselves? Yeah, I know, bad idea, but is it even remotely possible it could be something else?

Just throwing out ideas. To quote Sherlock Holmes, "When you rule out the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Still have my finger crossed for you. Waiting to hear some good news.

 

ChampIII, thank you for the response.

I will agree the liners are damaged. Would the damage be noticeable under regular operation, maybe, maybe not, but because of the low cost of liners and the fact the engine is broken down already, replacing them is the right thing to do I agree.

The rest of the recommendations I do question in a non-challenging way. I am not a mechanic, I am a physicist who writes software, who years ago worked as a mechanic on supersport race motorcycles out of necessity, so take my advice with that knowledge. Ferrari engines are high quality machines built to precise specifications, but they are really not that high performance and their specific output / liter are dwarfed by most supersport motorcycle, personal watercraft, and F1 engines. For example my Yamaha YZF-R1 nets 180HP from 1 liter, where the F430 nets less than 500 from 4.3 liters. If the F430 engine had the same level of technology as my $13K motorcycle it world output 774 normally aspirated and reliable HP, and rev to 16K RPM. My point is that an engine is an engine and a F430 engine is no different.

You must trust the people who will be standing behind the work, not FChat posters like myself. So enough of the disclaimers.

--- You may have to pay for the work (lets hope not), if so you should question until you are comfortable the components they want to replace --

Comments on the to-be-replaced list: (cut and paste from ChampIII's comments)
-Replace all 4 (liners) on the left bank
>I agree to replace any that show scarring. At $300 / ea, lets not argue this one.

-Replace pistons, liners and valves, and piston rings on all 8.
>Pistons: [$539 / ea] Why? The spots on the pistons that you can see in the images are where the foreign objects knocked the carbon deposits off of the piston (aka clean spots!). Pistons are VERY durable and are made to withstand 11.3:1 compression at 8500 rpm, and more importantly KNOCK, which is the same as hitting the piston with a hammer.
>Piston Rings: [$150/piston approx] May as well while they are out of the Sleeves. All 8 because the crankcase is one piece, so you have to remove both banks at once, so all 8 ring sets are fine IMO.
>Valves: [factory valves $$ but Ricambi seems to have them cheap. But you need a LOT of them, and installation is labor intensive install+seat] It has been stated that the valves are NOT bent. They appear to be seating good, so why replace a non-bent valve? The true question for any of these components is the same: "Are they out of factory specification?"
>Valve Seats: [<$10/ea] If they are damaged, then yes.

-Replace the timing chains and the tensioners as a precaution (not sure why)
>Why? Internal lubricated chains should outlast the engine in most cases. I have heard people changing chains at 100K, but you are at 10K. The tensioner, sure why not, as long as its not $$. The entire assembly is $1600, but I assume they will not be replacing the assembly.

Assume you will have to foot the bill and question the work to be done.

You have had an unlikely misfortune of suffering an engine failure. If you are through the psychological mourning curve [stages of grief] and are at acceptance then you should focus on reducing the economical impact of the event.

 

But wouldn't you agree, that if there is a foreign object in the combustion chamber preventing a piston from going full top dead center, that it may cause undue stress in other moving engine parts resulting in metallurgical stress/damage that isn't visible to the naked eye?

 

Since your car is a 2005 MY , and the metal does not appear to be from the exhaust cat, what provision of the factory warranty can be called upon to cover this engine damage?

Were you the original owner? i think i read that this car has 10,000 miles which is very low mileage IMHO.

 

Headers are now considered a 'wear item" as all will eventually fail due to operating temps.....from the 355s onward....it's the packaging of the engine into the car, really.

I've blown a few up myself, although on a much older model.

 

I don't think those dents and resultant cracks were in that trumpet when it left Maranello.....OTOH I don't know how something loose could make it past the intake screens and filters...

A missed fastener left in the intake trumpet tray maybe?

Made those dents and took out that chip then went down the intake.

 

I agree with this.....

 

ReinD, for your Q "But wouldn't you agree, that if there is a foreign object in the combustion chamber preventing a piston from going full top dead center, that it may cause undue stress in other moving engine parts resulting in metallurgical stress/damage that isn't visible to the naked eye?"

Yes I would have to agree that all damage might not be visible, certainly cant argue. I dont want to cause ChampIII and additional stress, so ChampIII please top reading here:

If you put an object in the combustion chamber that was large enough prevent the upward motion of the piston as the object is sandwiched between the piston and the head, a failure could happen in one of many places. (but not likely)
1. The object could simply be compressed, resulting in the object being deformed and damaged. No net damage to the engine. The intake material "appears" fairly soft. Heads (strong), valves (strong when closed), and pistons (very strong). The metal object was likely reshaped once per 320 deg of crank rotation.

2. The main bearings could be damaged. They are quite strong, spec'd for KNOCK loads, which are huge. Not to mention being able to handle 500 HP / 8.

3. Connecting Rods. The rods are very strong as well and the main bearings would likely fail first. But there is a chance I suppose that a connecting rod could be bent or the rod pin bent or damaged. Very unlikely, these are strong components.

All of these are not likely as the piston is very strong as are the heads and valves when closed.

I did have one new thought; The piston is a hammer and the anvil is the head or valve. Bending a valve with a small foreign object is not likely because the valves are closed at TDC (Top Dead Center), and they are very strong closed. So the metal object would likely strike the head or the closed valve, not bending the valves. Because the piston indentures are under the valves and cut to the valve angle. In this situation the foreign object would likely get "shaped" or hammered on every 320 deg rotation of the engine and the only damage would be cylinder wall scarring if the object is at the edge and the object has sherry surfaces, and/or the fine metallic powder created by the hammering could excessively wear the cylinder wall or valve guides. There was mention of a metallic powder.

My guess is still that with the metal object removed the car would start and run fine, with the most likely symptom from the ordeal being more oil blow-by. The oil blow by would probably be in small enough amounts not to be visible at the exhaust. More like a higher milage engine might exhibit in oil consumption.