The ACO got it wrong again at Le Mans

Well they have to market those smelly tdis somehow..and Le Mans, thanks to its organizers, seems to be the cheapest way...

So how are those two sentences connected?! Provided same regulations gasoline cars would make so much gap that they could sleep in a pit stop waiting for diesels..current 3.7 V6 diesel making 540 hp would definitely make over 1000 hp in a gasoline configuration.

How is torque producing down force exactly?! And no diesels of same capacity and turbo pressure as gasoline do not produce even close what gasolines do. Diesels of same power produce more torque than gasolines, but thats another story and has not to do with racing.

Nothing has caught up, they could make some huge turbodiesels and limit the gasolines to 1 liter capacity in 80s and diesels would win too.

His sentence sounds so utterly stupd. "Noise is unused energy." Well, sir, racing is unused energy too, especially from some diesel driver point of view..

 

Hello Torque by itself doenst make downforce, but it allows you to set the areo on the car for maximum downforce in the corners without robbing speed on the straights as the extra torque can overcome the unwanted downforce without losing top speed. Hope that helps in a non tech way of speech. Its easier with a lot of torque to PUSH that brick down the long straight as an Indy car is set up with less downforce in qualifying trim for maximum top end speed. Thanks Norm

 

and that's the reason if we race at Le Mans next year we'll be removing the Ferrari lump and be replacing it with a 3.5 Liter Direct injection Turbo Diesel.

 

:-D

 

It doesn't.
People say an engine is "torquey" which more importantly refers to making more hp at low rpm. Torque at the wheel, not the engine, is what determines the rate of acceleration. The more hp (not torque) at the engine the more torque at the wheels at any given road speed.


It takes hp to overcome the drag of the aero. It's really the broad power band that helps the diesels. The useable power band of 3,000-5,000 rpm in the Audi LeMans car, for example, means you can increase your speed by about 2/3 (60 mph to 100 mph for example) before needing to shift gears. If an F1 engine put out the same hp from 12,000 to 20,000 rpm as the diesel does from 3,000 - 5,000 it would be a very broad powerband, but in terms of rpm delta expressed as a percentage it would be the same as the diesels. It would also accelerate the LeMans Audi, aero and all, at exactly the same rate as the diesel while developing much less torque. HP determines the ability to accelerate and overcome aero drag, not engine torque.

In reality a modern F1 engine develops just over 200 lbs/ft of torque, whereas the Audi develops around 800. The F1 engine, however, develops about 100 more hp. Put the F1 engine in the Audi LeMans car with the right gearbox, and it will out-accelerate the diesel version because of the power advantage. Regardless of any aero settings.

The Audi LeMans diesel engine develops gobs of torque and people like to think that is what makes the difference in "overcoming" aero. It isn't...unless you combine the torque value with engine rpm you don't know what you have. When you do, have hp. That's what matters.

 

Six likely overall winners. You could do much worse. Seven if you add the Oreca Matmut Peugeot (and why wouldn't you).

Does it really matter that in LMP1 diesel is the way to go? In F1 at some point in time, rearengined cars turned out to be the way to go and then the FIA didn't even try to make rules to make life easier for those who were reluctant to make the change.

So yes, if you are in LMP1 with a petrol powered car, you have some fierce competition on your hands. But you have brought it on yourself by sticking with an obviously outdated concept. We have seen this time and time again in the world of motorsport. The ACO shouldn't even try to facilitate those who refuse to make the change. And besides, all categories will have competitors who don't have a reasonable shot at victory. Why should that be different for the likes of Rebellion and Pescarolo?

And of course, there is always the GT(E) class to look out for. They have provided us with some excellent racing over the past years, even with a leading role for the Ferrari's. This year will be no different.

I will attend the LMS race at Spa next weekend and not long after will head out for Le Mans. And I for one, can't wait!

 

Its not torque, its power. But because (for the same maximum power) diesel/turbo cars generate more average power than NA cars thats why they have advantage.

Thats right, its not about torque number, but torque distribution.

 

+1!
We don't need LMP900/675 class. We want full field of GT1, 2 and 3 (maybe even GT4) cars. Some XP cars based on GTs..........P4/5C
Le Mans 1995 was good!

 

Same as F1 wasn´t a rear-engined category back in the day. Or a semi automatic gearbox with flappy paddles-category.

Such as the position of the engine is not an outdated concept but just the position of the engine. Really? Why is it that petrol engined cars aren´t able to keep up with diesel powered cars in endurance racing? Well, probably because Diesels are better equipped for the job. If they weren´t, we wouldn´t even need regulation to help the poor petrol powered cars.

Why you suppose are diesels the weapon of choice for the big guns of Peugeot and Audi?

If they turn out to be superior, than yes. Obviously.

And whatddayaknow, diesels are simply crushing petrol in LMP1. That has nothing to do with ACO doing Audi a favour, but everything with the technical advantages diesel has over petrol in an endurance race.

I don´t know, but if you´d agree they´d be buying dieselengines of they could afford them, we could also agree that diesel is obviously the way to go. The only way to stop diesel is to simply forbid them.

Quite right. I´d love to see AMR putting up a fight against the Audi´s and the Peug´s next June, but I know it will not happen. I would love even more that Ferrari would return to Le Sarthe with an all new factorycar capable of gunning for the overall victory. But that is also not going to happen. Not because of the diesel-supremacy thought, but because Ferrari has other priorities. Ferrari left Le Mans way before a diesel even come close of sizzling down Les Hunaudieres.

But that doesn´t take away from the fact that diesels are the way to go in LMP1 and that, if you want to win, you buy or built yourself a diesel.

Back in the day Ferrari was opposed to the notion of a rear engined car (a horse pulls the carriage, it does not push it) but once reality leaves you no option, you either bite the bullit or go and do something else entirely. Or wait for ACO to ban diesel.

Dieselcars aren´t better at endurance racing than petrolcars because they are being favoured by the rules, they are better at it because they are better suited for the job. It are in fact the petrolcars that need favoritism in the rule department to even have a shot at keeping up with the dieselcars.

It would be ideal of petrolcars could keep up with dieselcars. But the reality is, they can´t. Not by a long shot. Why is ACO to blame for the fact that petrol has no answer against diesel? Why should they even be obligated to tweak the rules so the disadvantage of the ´wrong´ engine concept can be compensated?

 

True.

 

Nope as Ferrari isn't helping us in any way we've taken all of their logos off of P 4/5 Competizione.

Legally as what a car is is determined by it's chassis and vin # P 4/5 Competizione is a 2009 Ferrari and I guess even if we take their motor out and replace it with another manufactures it's legally still a Ferrari but it won't be running with any Ferrari Logos no matter what.

As a further aside that is my decision. If I wanted to run with a Ferrari nose badge I would just as the Breadvan and countless other modified Ferrari's have in the past.

As Ferrari Classiche calls The Breadvan, "A Ferrari of Historical Significance", I bet if we win The 24 of Nurburgring or in class at Le Mans next year that's what Ferrari will be calling us but I won't be.

 

In another way if you pay (Michelotto or the Factory or even Classiche) you have the right to put the badge on your car even if you loose, if you won't pay you have to win Le Mans to (maybe) get a chance to see P4/5C recognised as "A Ferrari of Historical Significance".

My advice is: put a german diesel engine on, win Le Mans and after that, take a tour with your street legal P4/C and go eat a tortellini dish at Montana restaurant...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rzQI1D1zPI[/ame]

 

They did with Prodrive in 2003 the same. 575 GTCs had to be made in Italy. UK Prodrive did not get the job because of Subaru rally parts..............they won GTS (GT1) class...........what was on ferrari.com: Ferrari wins Le Mans! (class) WTF!!!!!!!!????????
So all these 550s and all Michelotto F40's can only get the typo II certification like Breadvan and 308 GT/M.
P4/5C IS A FERRARI.

 

Because it is not an "open" class just like F1 isn't. Diesel fuel is not gasoline, is not alcohol, is not KERS, is not kerosene, etc. All top level racing is heavily regulated to suit a myriad of motives and desired results. If you want the racing to be competitive amongst different fuel sources you balance your power source vis-a-vis it's fuel.

If you don't and you want LeMans to be a diesel race then leave things the way they are.

 

and within the set of rules ACO has set, diesel is obviously the way to go if you want an overall win. It is a simple fact and it is up to the competitors to deal with that fact, by installing a diesel engine or try to somehow make a petrolengine competitive. I really don't see any responsibility on ACO's part to make life easier for the petrol powered cars through modified regulations.

I really don't care on what fuel the cars are running.Why would I? The only thing is the sound they make, but that is only a small aspect of racing. If ACO deems it important enough though, they'd be better of by banning diesel alltogether.

 

Ban LMP1/900!
We want GT racing back in its purest form.
"showroom cars" with some mods.
Who wants to see Audi winning LM again?!! (and they will win!)
I rather like to see R8 GT2 race against Gallardo GT2, 458GTs etc etc @ La Sarthe

 

Why not one of the Peugeots?

 

BTW, I have no problem with Le Mans Prototypes. Not at all. They were always a part of Le Mans, seperated from the GT class. Without them, we would never even have the 330P cars or 512S/M cars.

 

That is more or less exactly what you get to see. The GT battles have been awesome in most recent editions of Le Mans. It is still there. Who cares if they are not in it for the overall win. It is up to you to decide which category gets most of your attention.

 

I do care. ACO thinks they do it right for motor racing lovers.
I know a lot of Germans, English and Dutch that go to LM for 20+ years, a tradition, BUT they all say the same: WE WANT TO SEE GT RACING not factory prototypes Audi and Peugeot.
Millions of budgets. You wont see Porsche back for overall victory or Ferrari.
Bentley was an Audi/VW is disguise.

I fully agree with "ACO got it wrong AGAIN"
They also f$%^ked GT1, did not allow MC12 for stupid reasons.
Typically French though, see Monte Carlo rally stories in 60s: Mini Cooper 1 2 and 3!!!
No Citroen should win: so 4th car won....

 

+1. One could construct any set of rules that would radically promote a certain type of vehicle; I could construct a set that would massively tip the hand to steam-powered vehicles, but that doesn't make them cutting edge racers.

The whole thing really has become a farce. If I do watch Le Mans, I'm going to be following GT racing only. I couldn't give a damn about soulless diesel prototypes quietly moving around the track.

 

fully agree!
One should not forget VW/AUDI is a VERY BIG sponsor for ACO.....
If an other BIG (or two) make a deal for several years with ACO.........what would happen with the rules? Toyota with a full hybrid or even full electric and they pay a lot of sponsoring money to ACO..........