The Future

Jim, you had me at the jump with this pic. This is the bar for the modern supercar. It will be interesting to see who trys to top this car. I fear Ferrari will be a no show.

Dale
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I love the thrill of a stripped out/exclusive Ferrari, but I'm sure Ferrari showrooms are not finding many guys who actually enjoy the jarring ride felt over the ill repaired roads in the northeast, and diamond plate floorboards that resound with every pebble kicked up. Yet this is not a car I would consider tracking. The idea of tearing up a Ferrari on the track does not interest me.. Am I in the majority??? The many low mileage Scuds available tell me many guys have given up these cars and moved on, and the value of these cars in the secondary market has as has been pointed out, not held. To what vehicles those fellas have moved on to I have no clue. Sales dictate marketing and production, and I presume Ferrari will continue to make a higher % of comfy products rather than bare bone models. Fortunately, there will always be a select few of us, whether we track the car or not, who will always be in the market for a "Scud" type Ferrari, thus insuring a car of that nature will be produced.. At least I hope so.

 

Lotus has the right recipe now with the Elise/Exige. They don't pretend that those are practical cars, and tossed luxury out the window. They aren't collectibles, or investments, so you can bang them up, wear them out, repair and go again without regret.

Compare that to the F430 Scuderia/16M which is a hardcore track car/convertible/investment/limited edition collectible. The car is obviously very good, but it's trying to serve too many purposes. The 599/FF/California probably make more sense because they are basically luxury toys with no track pretentions.

What might make sense -- and I know this idea has been posted elsewhere -- is for Ferrari to make a purpose-built amateur track car and price it in Porsche GT3 RS territory. Limit the electronics to the bare minimum, don't bother with matching Schedoni luggage or contrasting stitching on the ash tray lid. Don't have an options list. Seats two and only two. Spiritually it would go back to the real GTO, or original Porsche Speedster idea with some Elise/Exige flavor added -- light, small, simple, cheaper.

 

It seems that the AM product marketers are realizing the small but exclusive and potentially lucrative (from profit per unit and brand building perspectives) positioning of street-legal track cars and track-ready street cars. Traditionally, racers know that a dual use street/track car is a compromised setup - such car is neither optimized for street/road nor track. Yet many still desire a race car for the street. Although I have both a sporty/convertible street car and a dedicated race car (that has an uncompromised race setup), I'm one of those who appreciate the ultimate combination.

Sadly and only in my opinion, the CS and Scuderia are marketing exercises to position a car as race car for the street. I'm not convinced that they are really race cars that are barely street legal. On the other hand, Enzo-era cars such as 250GTO and LM are such examples that I think sports car manufacturers are emulating. Other car manufacturers in that era also built race cars that are streetable and street cars that are trackworthy. Hence, this is part of the reason that the 50s/60s seems to be within the golden years of the automobile. Today, Porsche is one of the few that are still building such cars - GTRS, etc. There is a reason that Porsche seems to be the most popular track day car for the past couple of decades. Having said this, Porsche has also branched out towards building cars that are strictly street use but capitalizing on their race brand equity (Funny thing is Porsche's Everyday marketing campaign supports their trend to go the other way).

Going back to car manufacturers' potential trend of building street-legal but track-ready cars, I applaud such efforts particularly if such cars are truly track-ready and not just tuning the engine sound, creating overdamped suspension characteristics, and stripping interiors. Better yet, I would really appreciate a race car that can be converted for street use. Streetable race cars are distinct from track-ready street cars. For example, I'd like to have GT3 RSR raced in Le Mans and convert it for street use. This way, I'd have a retired race car with real period race history that can be driven to/from the track and can be occasionally raced for fun.

I looked for a long time for a race car with period race history that can also be street-legal. There's simply not many out there, especially in my price range, with such qualifications as the 904/906/910 Spyder, 250TRs and 330 P3/P4. Therefore, I'd encourage AM, Porsche and Ferrari to build race cars that can be raced in pro levels and eventually be converted back to street use. Jim, based on your admirable P4/5 project, I think you would agree that there is not a lot out there and that the alternative approach is to create your own streetable historic race car.

 

having taken my 07 gt3 on track about 30 times i appreciated its track prowess but i think ferrarichat is giving porsche way too much credit. a cs or scud is just as capable and has the added attributes of a ferrari. the only downside to them is the cost.

16m is my alltime favorite car and while a can afford to buy one, maintain it, and drive it 5000 mi/yr i still cannot afford to risk tracking it. its just too expensive for that and i wouldnt buy one to just tool around the neighborhood in. its why i went with a gt3 but to say ferrari just makes it as a marketing exercise is unfair.

 

Trackable road cars, a a whole, is an isolated market segment that every maunfacturer poses at, but few really accomplish. Worse, they encourage that posing image with hideously incapable cars. I'm picturing here a 19 year old that puts a 'fart-pipe' on a four door KIA then acts as if he has a sports car. Atrocious. I was tooling down a remote section of interstate approaching Nashville in my 560 SL, 1987 year with the big 5.6 V8. Not a track car by any means, but a capable roadster, as it is categorized as. This car 'settles in' at around 90 and seems to say..."Now I'm ready for business." I see lesser cars, newer cars, trying to do this same thing and you can see that those cars are already well past the limits of chassis and engine, and usually driver capability.

If manufacturers could learn lessons from Ferrari, and actually CARE about well thought-out performance features being meaninfully built into their road cars the driving public would benefit. Ferrari comes from racing to the road. Most others go from budget driven to pimping sport capabilities. I believe the driver loses in the latter case, and wins in the former.

But here again, this is the "niche of niches" that all are aware of but few actually do. I believe that Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Lotus, and a few others are capable of making some excellent and meaningful contributions to that niche and enthusiast/drivers will ultimately benefit. I hope so, it's the only market segment that matters to me. It's why I'd rather drive my 560 or X1/9 or soon a 3X8 than anything new. Oh my, this is my 200th post in a forum I love but am woefully inadequate to post in. This is the best sports car forum of all. Thanks Mr. Lay.

 

So far I've owned a 996 GT3, an Elise, a Stradale, and now a 997 GT3RS. I've tracked all of them. They are all fun to drive on the track and are track capable. None of them are as fast as their pure race car versions. As for which was most fun? CS and Scud, for sure - nothing beats flogging those supermodels on a track.

But getting back to Jim's observations and others' comments: the reason, in my opinion, for the popularity of Porche's over Ferrari's for this type of car is down to primarily one thing: COST. It bears remembering that a GT3 costs one third what a Scuderia costs, and probably even less than that to maintain. This cost issue limits the usability and market for these cars.

 

I totally agree, the stripped street/track Ferrari's just seem more 'classic Ferrari' to me.

 

Fair enough re: cost and pure race car version comparison.

 

But there is no reason for this cost difference, particularly considering a Porsche GT3 would blow a CS and Scud away on the race track.

So the only reason the not as effective track Ferraris cost more is because we are all being ripped off by the Ferrari badge.

Again there is a reason why professional race drivers pick Porsches (cost and effectiveness). The only people that pick Ferraris to race in inter-marque series are emotionally attached and not thinking logically. In Australia they are usually over 50 and living the dream, running mid-pack.
Pete

 

No it won't.

And regarding your "ripped off" comment 997 Turbo owners are by that logic being ripped off because off the GT-R.

And if track times in a streetcar is of great importance why not buy a Radical and outgun anything with number plates?

 

For sure! Go to the Nordschleife on a random touristenfahrten day and you'll see lots of GT3RS' (always the newest model too) and maybe 1 Scuderia (in the parking lot).

 

There is more than just a kernal of truth there...

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgDtnaXHOYQ&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srY_4gQfWco&feature[/ame]

 

^ Unreal!! Spitfire mated with a chainsaw...!

 

I think we all accept that when we buy these cars it has a lot to do with the heritage, badge and pomp and circumstance.

The real question, getting back to the OP's OP, is whether Ferrari should step up their game in making track-ready cars. Given the limp market for used F430 Scuderias, it seems like LdM has made the right move in peddling comfort and golf club carrying ability (California/599/FF). Apparently the FF has sold out its current production run (?), so it looks like Ferrari have priced themselves out of the track toy market and are competing in the ultra-luxury market.

 

Wasn't that always the case? The Lussos outselling the Corsas. SWBs, Calis, etc.

 

I think a Scud is fairly comparable to a 997 GT3 RS phase1. Maybe not a phase 2 but these are much more recent.

I think the new zagato might be MUCH more expensive than a RS or Scud and i would compare it to an FXX/XX which are real track cars.

 

Ferrari has always made toys for Playboys.

Dale

 

But they need to built one in the Porsche price range and make it a winner. They could do it but choose not to. TVR ( RIP) used to make some very cool track only cars. Ferrari and Maserati need to do the same. AM and Chevy have my interest at the moment and not Ferrari.

 

As focused street cars with doors go, it's tough to top this one at any #. And there're a few new still unsold ...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2mFEC2H0cY&feature[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhQE4XfDitg[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XpUj8AziBs&feature[/ame]

http://www.bjmotors.biz/vipers08-10.html

 

You make an excellent point. You make a beyond excellent point.

After all, hasn't the American experience always been about excess?

Dale

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMsIrKjSM6Y[/ame]

 

Yes.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U62stubaal4[/ame]

And scoreboard and winning.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4DzfkrDg_Y[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pipTwjwrQYQ[/ame]