Rob Cam Adventure Continues

Still here... still banging away on my restoration... still posting. YOU have all my numbers so don't hesitate to call if you need to.

Rick

 

I'm here too, I just don't have any help for you, having always entrusted this task to my (now deceased) friend John R. Vallandingham (JRV).

There's been considerable discussion about Marvel Mystery Oil freeing up stuck/carboned rings, after several days of soaking. Maybe let that do three days in the cylinder before starting it up??

I also agree a bent valve stem will drop the compression to ZERO immediately so that's some comfort too, no one around you has a scope to look inside???

Rock on Robert!!!

..and don't be sad.
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Oh, you (IMO) absolutely need the "50" weight oil, in my experience for proper oil pressure in these engines....

15/50W will be fine, I think, or a 5/50W would be better flow when cold.

 

That's interesting about you and Dino.

I bought the Playboy from the month I was born, and there was an article about the Mille Miglia that dePortago was supposed to write.

But he was dead.

 

Rob,

Some suggestions.

Button it up, do a compression check. If you have anything north of 150 psi, close it and fire it up. Adjust static timing, finalize dynamtic timing, tune the carbs, and drive it.

The 2V engine is not sensitive to cam shaft degreeing accuracy unless you are way off. Since all the marks line up, drive it.

I know that when it comes to your Ferrari, you want to achieve perfection. Perfection does not exist! You cannot read 0.195 degree from a degree wheel that has only 1 degree marks. You don't need to replace the timing belts after just manually turning the belts over by hand, even if the WSM tells you to. Stop doodling over getting all the little things right and just put it back and drive it.

 

Rob
Sounds like you have dotted your i's and crossed your t's (a couple of times)...time to button it up. It really does sound like you have done everything right so far or one of the guys in the know would have jumped in...I kinda went thru the same thing and the best advice I kept getting was Keep It Simple (as I have a tendency to over-think things). As I am sure you know Birdman's carb tutorial will get you there on the carbs...Take a deep breath, get on with it, and have some fun with this car!

 

...
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There are several Hylomar formulas, all but 1 have the quick dryinng solvent. The one to use is the HYLOMAR ADVANCED FORMULATION which is solvent free:

http://www.hylomarsealant.com/_resources/_pdf/Hylomar_Advanced_Data.pdf
http://www.hylomarsealant.com/_resources/_html/products.html

It comes in a green and red package as shown below.

BTW, Because it never hardens, it will cold flow under pressure, thus will require re-torqueing after a day or so. LIke all sealants it should be applied as thin as possible, a just visable film is sufficient.
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Thanks Verell,

I used the Honda Bond all around this time. Here is a new pic. I finally hooked up the long heater and vacuum hose which was one of the reasons for this whole service. Repainted the dog bone support.
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Hi Rob,
Now that you've got the dial indicators off, could you post/send me a couple of pictures of that spark plug hole mounted dial indicator post??

If Parker doesn't want to make them, I just might!! Fer Sure I"m making one for my in progress cam timing project.

 

Verell,

Peter made those tools and I sent them back. I think he is watching this thread so maybe he will post some better pictures or send you some info. I have a few things I want to say which I have been holding in.

1. If your car is running good and the cam marks are near the cap marks, do NOT attempt to degree your cams. Peter did his using the tools he sent me and told me that his numbers on his very early 75 like mine were very close if not spot on. I have always wanted to do this even, before i had the slight cam lobe damage, but I regret it more than anything I have ever done in my life. Even signing 3 times to the same record label!!

2. If you are determined and I cannot dissuade you then at least take your engine out of the car. A well known expert on the list told me to do this correctly he could not imagine how you could do it properly with the engine in the car. Trying to line up the marks using perspective on the GT4 is near impossible on the front exhaust cam let along on a regular 308. If any are still dead set on risking their engine, set your shims to .5mm, adding the value to the indicator is the opinion of many experts and techs to be ineffective as the ramp effect on the lobes gives more accurate readings with the factory clearance.

3. Look at my pictures. Everything I do I check, I double check, I ask advice, I ask for more advice. With the cam marks as close as 1/16 to all marks on my rear bank I think I may have touched my valves. This is after checking my marks, checking TDC, checking my marks again, loosening the tensioner, then checking my marks, writing everything down then turning the engine.

Some have told me that you need to be 2 teeth off to hit the valves. I was never even near to 1 tooth off anywhere. Several experts told me that to bend a valve you would have you lean on it, others told me my engine is toast. I did my leak down test which was inconclusive and once again I got varied responses from its fine put it together and drive it, to its horrible. I am trying to think positive but wish I could turn back the clock to never have attempted this....My car ran perfect, I thought maybe I could make it run better, these last few months have been horrible. I do not have the resources like many on this list, I am not even in the shrinking middle class, the only thing i share with many here is my love for everything ferrari something I have like a fever. If I hurt my engine I will have to sell a liver or something. 3 listers have e-mailed me probably not wanting to post that they had similar experiences, and at least 1 has e-mailed me he hit his valves and said not to worry as that was 20,000 miles ago on his 308 engine. I would like to hearby acknowledge this is something I could not do and maybe other than rebuilding your engine or gearbox, I cant imagine a procedure as fraught with difficulties and unseen dangers. I wish someone had posted something like this in the long "degreeing" threads I was attempting to follow.

I wish someone could design some kind of permanent dial indicator, as knowing where the engine is is important for many other reasons, such as aligning distributors, replacing timing belts etc. I was thinking of something similar to Peters but instead of sticking out would slip on the front of the dampner...

I wish I could be more positive but after 17 years of ownership with myself being the only one who has serviced the car, with only my WSM and the kindness of others many who will not even return my e-mails, this has been the only negative aspect of my service history and or ownership. I feel I have learned allot from these events and am literally praying everything will turn out alright.....

a very concerned
Rob

P.s. then again maybe my engine is fine and everything will turn out better than I hoped.
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I will post this stuff on here, but I can't be bothered to make them. I have no problems sending measurements/notes... I make stuff for myself only as the need arises. Like Rob, I'll spend countless hours to make a custom tool only to use it ONCE (to me the effort, time and cost has been paid for in that case). I lent my timing tools to Rob as I know him and trust him and he has helped me out with my GT4 on many occasions. I wouldn't do that with anyone else (really), as I've lent out other tools over the years, valued at hundreds of dollars each to either have them returned YEARS later (no joke) or worse, broken.

I'm not interested in producing tools as I work for a living and it is lucrative enough
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Only one word: brilliant idea

Regards
Harry

 

It is really a great idea. how do you find TDC with that?

 

You don't.

It is (the set-up) simply used as indications to valve movement when turning the engine over by hand to check timing sequence.

 

Friends,

You can buy a $450 tool like I did or use a $5 piston stop both indicated that my flywheel mark was spot on and even though there was a $445 difference both agreed exactly with each other. Just today another experienced mechanic told me he hit his pistons to his valves while degreeing his cams on a 308 engine..... I apologize to everyone for my lack of enthusiasm for this procedure, but it was meant to be a warning for all the wanna be Ferrari mechanics like me that need to set limits. Hey I can change both inner and outer cam pulley bearings with the engine in the car that was easy... Clutch, no problem. Rear suspension, cooling system, childs play.....this no so much so. I wish that someone that knew what they were doing could have been with me to prevent my self confidence and hopefully not my engine from being irreparably damaged. Thank goodness I still feel qualified to finish replacing my hoses.....

Rob
with his irreparably damaged self confidence
Peter warned me and I did not listen maybe some newbie reading this will.....
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Sorry Peter, I was just being stupid. I have no access to a mill or I would have done something like you did. It is a very beautiful idea to hold the indicators over the cams.

Rob, the degreeing is complicated at first but once you got the hang of it, it is quite simple. You are correct in that you probably should practice on someone else's engine instead of your own. Had you been within 60 miles of where I live, I would have offered some help.

The "changing inner and outter cam drive bearings in situ" you did some years ago was brilliant. not many of us can handle that. I took the engine out, for god's sake.

Consider your ability top notch and self confidence intact.

 

I didn't consider it to be a "stupid" question, in fact, I'm glad you brought that up, because if anybody else sees this thread, I don't want them to be misled into thinking this dial indicator set-up is for TDC finding... The photos of the tools Rob posted above are the proper ones for that.

FWIW, the whole reason why I made these tools was when I did my major back in 2009, I wanted to confirm for myself if the marks on MY cams were accurate. I have heard on here, the 'List and other places that the marks were inaccurate. After doing all of the checks, I have determined that my marks on my cams are accurate. The next time I'm going to do my belts, I'm going to use the marks and be done with it. I had warned Rob, that it took an incredible amount of time to set this stuff up while in the engine bay because there is so little room. I can't imagine how someone with a GTB/S could do it as there is less access to the front bank of cylinders than a GT4.

And yes, doing the cam drive bearings IN SITU is an incredible feat (Rob is my hero ). I imagine mine will probably be due again in another 20K mi and I won't think twice about hauling that engine out!

 

Friends,

I know someone on this thread will know this. I am putting back my distributors tomorrow and a bit confused on the initial installation. The WSM is pretty clear but because of the emission chapter it is confusing. I am running R1 points only. I am at TDC so I plan on rotating the engine clockwise until I reach the 6° ( or is it 7°) mark before PM5-8, put on the front distributor with the rotor pointing at the mark on the housing, cylinder #5, then rotate the engine, past TDC once more until I come up to 6° before TDC and put the rear distributor on with the rotor facing the mark on the housing , cylinder #1. It has been a while but I think I have been static timing the engine at 6°. What is the 3° mark on the flywheel is that for the R2 retarded. Everything is coming back together nicely. All of Dave's hoses are remarkable. I am also using the AWAB SS 316 clamps which are pretty nice also.

Since I have baselined my carbs I want to get the timing set up as close as posible, I am pretty sure I will have to bounce back and forth to get them all perfect. I heard you cannot set up the carbs without perfect timing and I am pretty sure I cannot set the timing perfectly with the carbs unsynced?

Thanks for all your help and support, I am feeling more positive. I started to et up my units on the Sun and it started making a funny sound. I had to take it apart and fix it! HA The allen set screw on the engine pulley had come loose! The reason I got this was to play with the advance mechanisms but I am puting the units back set up as they came off as the car was running great. Someone hot rodded my distributors before I got the car and I am learning a lesson if it is working good dont mess with it maybe a little to late but better late than never!

Rob
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Having a Sun machine put you in a league of maybe 5 persons on this board and you are asking for advise ?

 

What is this?? Some kind of time machine??
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I am no expert by any means, so take this with a grain of salt. I would think putting the flywheel on PM1-4 at TDC, then putting the distributor in with the rotor aligned to the #1 cyl (same basic procedure for the front bank), then statically setting the timing would get the timing close enough to work on the carbs...

 

Also, another thing you might do to get the side to side carbs somewhat setup (enough to get it started anyway is without the front to back linkage installed, screw the side-to-side adjustor in until the left carb throttle stops start to lift off the throttle stops. Final adjustment shouldnt be too far away from that spot.

as far as getting the front to back in a close spot without the car running: First make both the threaded rod assemblies about the same length with turnbuckles in about the same position. Back the keeper screws out pretty far so the assembly easily goes over the balls with lotsa slop. Put the lower turnbuckle assembly on bell housing. Then put the upper threaded rod assembly on, and if you carefully turn the upper threaded rod you can watch for the point where both the upper and lower rods ends are in equal compression. Just watch the whole assembly move and you should be able to tell. As we all know the fine point where they are in equal compression is very very sensitive, but this should get you close enough to fire it up.

there is a better thread on this procedures somewhere I will see if i can find it.

good luck.

 

also read this thread

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55165&page=2

 

Peter & Rob,
Thanks for the pictures.
I've been mounting my dial indicator post on a cam cover stud & it just isn't rigid enough. The spark plug hole post should be significantly more rigid, as well as being better located.

Rob,
I agree that degreeing cams is not a novice project unless he's got an experienced coach to get him thru it.

I've got a GTS, and agree that degreeing the cams with the engine in the car is a PITA, but doable. It helps to have a 'Topside Creeper' to lie on that gets me right on top of the engine. It still takes 2 people. While I can reach down & turn the engine while watching the dial indicator, I need a 2nd person to read the degree wheel. It also doesn't help that the engine tends to back up 1/2 to 1-1/2 degrees when you let pressure off of the turning wrench!

I tried making an electronic degree wheel using an inclinometer. It read angles very accurately, should work great with the engine out & on a very rigid table or stand. However, with the car on a lift, just leaning on the car will tilt the body a degree or two!