B-17 Crash

I have thought about the aging of the B-17's, too. You're looking at 65+ years on some of the rubber items that includes the bladder tanks and hoses. The fuel lines are aging aluminum and so are the fittings and they can crack. The area where the fire showed itself is at least 10-12 feet aft of the engine and behind the rear spar. That area is full of plumbing and some mechanisms. If a fire had errupted in or behind engine #2 it would have shown up in the wheel well, I think, and there would have been some smoke. This appeared to be a clean hot gasoline fire that initially was small. Twenty twenty hindsight suggests that they could have made the 3 miles to an airport with fire equipment but the pilot did the right thing to land quickly with 7 passengers on board. Correction on the fire location: After looking at my stuff the fire was more like 15 feet aft of the fire wall of number two engine and right at the inboard end of the aft bladder tank where there are three 1 1/2-2 inch fuel lines and some machinery to run the flaps.

 

Some nice photos posted by "Murph" can be found here:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211889&page=2

 

seen this aircraft fly over me once. beautyful plane that made a great sound.

 

I'm not sure how that would have been practical. I think there was a fire extinguisher available, but no water source that I could see. So, at best 300-500 gallons of water (one fire truck load) could have been thrown on the fire, but the fuel would still burn.

No, I don't think it could technically be saved. The appropriate fire fightning services were no where close.

 

Very sad. During a flight in Aluminum Overcast at Oshkosh a few years ago it struck me that I had never ridden in a car over 30 years old, yet here we were thundering through the air in a 65 year old piece of complex machinery...
Fantastic in-flight photos - much nicer to remember her this way.

 

Here's a statement by the Liberty Foundation Chief Pilot:

http://www.libertyfoundation.org/index.html

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(copy and paste from website)

June 14, 2011 - First, let me start off by sincerely thanking everyone for the outpouring of support that we are receiving. I am sorry that I have not yet had the opportunity to return the many phone calls, text or e-mails that I am receiving offering to help. Again, thank you for all of the kind words that we are receiving and for incredible offers to help emotionally, financially and/or with the recovery process. I hope this statement will help fill in a few details that everyone is wondering about that led to the loss of our “Liberty Belle”.

Yesterday (June 13, 2011) morning, both our P-40 and B-17 were scheduled to fly from Aurora, Illinois to Indianapolis, Indiana. We were in Aurora for the weekend as a part of our scheduled tour. Over the course of the previous week, we completed a scheduled 25-hour inspection on the B-17 which was completed by Saturday. On Saturday, the weather stayed below the required ceiling to give any passenger flights, however the B-17 flew in the morning on a routine training proficiency flight, performing several patterns. Following the flight, other maintenance issues arose that required us to cancel our Sunday flying schedule for repairs. The maintenance performed has not been, in any way, associated to the chain of events that led to Monday’s fateful flight, but is being considered in the preliminary investigation. However, due to the media’s sensational (mis)reporting, there is a large amount of misinformation that continues to lead the news.

Here is what we do know… Flying in the left seat of the B-17 was Capt. John Hess. John has been flying our Liberty Belle since 2005 and one of our most experienced B-17 pilots. He is an active Delta Air Lines Captain with over 14,000 hours of flying experience and flys a variety of vintage WWII aircraft. In the right seat was Bud Sittic. While Bud is new to the Liberty Foundation this year, he is also incredibly experienced with over 14,000 hours of flying time in vintage and hi-performance aircraft. He is a retired Captain with Delta Air Lines.

The news misidentified the P-40 as flying chase during the accident. I was flying our P-40, however I had departed 20 minutes prior to the B-17’s takeoff on the short flight to Indianapolis to setup for the B-17’s arrival. The aircraft flying chase was a T-6 Texan flown by owner Cullen Underwood. Cullen is one of our rated B-17 Captains and an experienced aviator tagging along as a support ship.

The takeoff of both aircraft was uneventful and proceeded on-course southeast. Prior to exiting Aurora’s airport traffic area, the B-17 crew and passengers began investigating an acrid smell and started a turn back to the airport. Almost immediately thereafter, Cullen spotted flames coming from the left wing and reported over the radio that they were on fire.

As all pilots know, there are few emergency situations that are more critical than having an in-flight fire. While an in-flight fire is extremely rare, it can (and sometimes does) indiscriminately affect aircraft of any age or type. In-flight fires have led to the loss of not only aircraft, but often can result in catastrophic loss of life. It requires an immediate action on the flight crew, as the integrity of aircraft structure, systems and critical components are in question.

Directly below the B-17 was a farmer’s field and the decision was made to land immediately. Approximately 1 minute and 40 seconds from the radio report of the fire, the B-17 was down safely on the field. Within that 1:40 time frame, the crew shutdown and feathered the number 2 engine, activated the engine’s fire suppression system, lowered the landing gear and performed an on-speed landing. Bringing the B-17 to a quick stop, the crew and passengers quickly and safely exited the aircraft. Overhead in the T-6, Cullen professionally coordinated and directed the firefighting equipment which was dispatched by Aurora Tower to the landing location.

Unlike the sensational photos that you have all seen of the completely burned B-17 on the news, you will see from photos taken by our crew that our Liberty Belle was undamaged by the forced landing and at the time of landing, the wing fire damage was relatively small. The crew actually unloaded bags, then had the horrible task of watching the aircraft slowly burn while waiting for the fire trucks to arrive. There were high hopes that the fire would be extinguished quickly and the damage would be repairable. Those hopes were diminished as the fire trucks deemed the field too soft to cross due to the area’s recent rainfall. So while standing by our burning B-17 and watching the fire trucks parked at the field’s edge, they sadly watched the wing fire spread to the aircraft’s fuel cells and of course, you all have seen the end result. There is no doubt that had the fire equipment been able to reach our aircraft, the fire would have been quickly extinguished and our Liberty Belle would have been repaired to continue her worthwhile mission.

Let me go on the record by thanking the flight crew for their professionalism. Their actions were nothing short of heroic and their quick thinking, actions and experience led to a “successful” outcome to this serious in-flight emergency. John and Bud (and Cullen) did a remarkable job under extreme circumstances and performed spectacularly. While the leading news stories have repeatedly reported the “crash” of our B-17, fact is they made a successful forced landing and the aircraft was ultimately consumed by fire. Airplanes are replaceable but people are not and while the aircraft’s loss is tragic, it was a successful result.

This leads me into discussing the exceptional safety record of the Boeing B-17 and to hopefully squash the naysayers who preach we should not be flying these types of aircraft. Since we first flew the “Liberty Belle” in December of 2004, we have flown over 20,000 passengers throughout the country and if you count our historic trip to Europe in 2008, worldwide. Of the other touring B-17s, some of which that have been touring for over 20 years, they have safely flown hundreds of thousands of people. The aircraft’s safety record is spectacular and I am certain the overall cause of our issue, which is under investigation, will not tarnish that safety record. In fact, as many of you know, other B-17 have suffered significant damage (although not as bad as ours!), only to be re-built to fly again. From a passenger carrying standpoint, I can think of few aircraft that offer the same level of safety as the 4-engine “Flying Fortress”. As mentioned earlier, in-flight fires are extremely rare and certainly could affect any powered aircraft under certain circumstances. I would put my children today in any of the other touring B-17s to go fly. I suggest to anyone that was thinking of doing so when a B-17 visits your area to do so without giving our loss any thought.

There is wild speculation going on as to the cause of our fire and the affect to other operators. Please let the investigation run its course and report the findings. The NTSB and FAA were quickly on the scene and we are working closely with them to aid in the investigation. As soon as we receive some additional information, we will release it via the website.

The ultimate question remains, where does the Liberty Foundation go from here? After the investigation and recovery, we will determine our options. We are still committed to the restoration and flying of World War II aircraft. Again, we appreciate the support and people offering to help get us back flying.

Please check back for updates. I will close by thanking everyone that made our tour so successful. From the first day of the B-17’s restoration, thank you for all of you who labored to get her flying over the initial restoration years and to everyone that has worked on her out on tour since. Thank you to the crewmembers, tour coordinators and volunteers who gave up weekends and countless hours to support her on the road. And finally, thank you to the passengers, donors and media patrons that flew aboard and everyone who supported our cause. Hopefully, this will not be the end of the story, but a new beginning.

Regards,
Ray Fowler
The Liberty Foundation, Chief Pilot

 

I could swear I read somewhere that the fire fighters were close but were unable to get to the plane in time because the field was soft or something like that.

Maybe I just misunderstood it.

I just know when i read it I pictured a field with 3 ft. tall plants or something like that. Not an almost plain field.

 

Oh, man...I had planned to finally take a flight on her this summer. That's sad.

 

Personally I think it is rediculous that the fire trucks did not go close enough to put the fire out, heck yes they might have got stuck but if they drove on to the field at speed they would likely have got close enough.

After the fire was out they could have towed their trucks out ... while it will not help, I'd like an explanation. I guess there was no life at risk ...
Pete

 

And what if there had been another fire in the area while the B-17 was being saved? The trucks would have been stuck in the mud, and lives elsewhere could have been lost.

Sure, losing the B-17 is tragic, but there are others, and no one was injured. One could make the case that the crew could have tried to get closer to the perimeter before abandoning ship, but when you're on a burning airplane, the thought is to get out as soon as possible. Life will go on.....

 

Very very sad news. I wonder when someone will decide to make recreation B17s so that the originals can stay safely indoors and be enjoyed for 100+ years.

 

I would have tried w the truck and if I put it in up to the axles so be it. But I would of tried.

I bought stuff from the teams of Miss America and White Lightning at Reno and flew Lady Jo. I am looking forward to flying Crazy Horse and will be most happy to continue supporting the people that keep em flying.

My condolences to the Liberty Belle foundation on your loss.

 

Wow, I hate to hear this, but I'm glad everyone got out OK. I flew in Aluminum Overcast a while back and had a great time. B-17's are great airplanes.

 

Hope nobody finds this a little off-taste, but they do insure these warbirds don't they?

Wonder how much they had on the policy, and if possibly they could start a restoration on another one selected from the near-flyables?

 

Insurance rules! I'll bet that they had insurance on Liberty Bell. The insurance companies never miss a lick when they are convinced that anything thing that flies is going to fall from the sky especially an airplane that is 65 years old. My buddy and I quit doing air shows because of the heavy insurance. Many wonderful antiques like the beautiful SP locomotive 4449 are unable to run because of the insurance burden.
I'm an advocate of flying these vintage airplanes so that the younger public can experience the thrill of what it was like then. They were built to fly, so fly them. After several years of work and all my pennies my old airplane met its end while in the air doing what it was born to do. But while it was still operable it gave many rides, flew in many air shows, and even though it wasn't a big fire belching fighter it drew a lot of interest because it was an original WW2 " Grass Hopper". My son, Kris, solo'ed in it at age 16 and went on to be an airline pilot and a helluvalot better pilot than I ever was. Sad to see what happened to a beautiful bird like Liberty Bell.

 

From my understanding many only have liability. Covering the aircraft is very costly.

From what I have been told a few years of coverage would equal rebuilding costs of a crash. Fire is another matter. The only thing left here is engines and landing gear.

 

Well, I hope they had something on it - at least enough to get restarted.

Like Rifledriver said - the aircraft coverage probably would have been expensive. I just thought maybe they could have covered it from airshow revenue.

I know that I had only liability on my Citabria because I did not have a bank note - it saved me quite a lot of money that ended up getting spent on a hanger and yearly maintenance.

 

I saw this aircraft flying last year over the OKC area. What a sound. Glad all are ok

 

Having ridden behind 4449, I appreciate that sentiment.

What this country needs is tort reform.....

 

But I would have to think none of the original plumbing, fitting, tanks or lines are being used, that stuff would all have been replaced?

I can understand one persons' view that if the fire trucks got stuck, what would happen if a 'real' crash happened and they could not get to it, but I would still think they could have sent a few trucks to it, not all of them?
They have designs, they can build another one, all it takes is $$$$, and lots of it.

 

I would imagine that the inventory of B-17 replacement parts is running thin and then there is the way some things, even though they are properly maintained, can fail. I know that there are two large fuel feed tank fittings in that area as well as several hose couplings and a tank vent port for four tanks. There are boost pumps also that feed fuel to the number one and number two engines and all of it is connected by hoses. The bladder tank itself could have started a leak. It would be almost impossible to replicate a B-17 today even with gobs of money. Fabrication tooling is no longer in existence with which to make the spar tubing and other wing rib trusses. The inner corrugated wing skin would require special tooling to roll it. The fuel tanks would have to be fabricated of something other than the self sealing rubber that is no longer used or formed to fit the plan taper or thickness taper of the wing. On and on with too many items that would be almost impossible to acquire now. As beloved as it is, the B-17 is a dinosaur.

 

Doubtful... fire trucks are incredibly heavy. They probably would have been up to their axles in a few feet.

Even towing them out would be a big undertaking.

Then they wouldn't be putting out the B17 or any other fire.

 

Some more photos with "Liberty Belle"...
http://taylorempireairways.com/2009/page/6/

 

While on Alcatraz in April of this year, we saw this very beast fly over the bay. Those 4 big radials sync'd up and 12 wide / flat blades beating the air......I can't imagine being in Berlin in 1945 with the sky full of these.


Geffen

 

Thinking back, maybe this is one of the reasons why aurport firetrucks haver such huge tires. If the plane crash on a field nearby or something they should be able to get very close to help as many people as possible.