328 to 512BBi

a euro dry sump 308 in proper tune is a quick car but not faster than your 328...maybe as fast but not faster.

an 85 qv will get outgunned by your 328 w/o question.

 

dick fritz would agree with much of your post. he does have some basis for knowing the performance of both carb and injected cars.

 

well if its not, Mr,,Scott sure has the fastest 3x8 that i will have ever come across,,,i mean ever,,,

 

hey Scott,if you would rather do a roll on .,,,on the freeway,,,that would be ok with me as well,,,say like starting in 3rd gear,,and we can see which car is the faster,,,then we can do a casual ride to the lookout,,and ill buy breakfast,,,the lookout has excellent food,,,let me know,,,,310 809 6306 Brett

 

Sorry...too far west for me. Where are you? L.A.? It's a LONG drive to get to the 5 via the 74 from Temecula. I'm actually meeting up with a fellow from this site (At Sea) on Sunday. He has a Carb 512BB. NowTHAT will smoke either of our cars, but especially yours... ;-)

Would be really interested to have you drive the 308, as everything I've articulated in this thread (and others) will come clearly home to you. And, of course, your 328, as happened with me and mine, will become obviously too refined and numb and thus expendable...

"I don't know what Scott has done to that 308 but it is FAST". - Rick Birkenstock i.e. Sandyeggo on Fchat.

 

It's gotta be the fact that the car doesn't have any side mirrors.

 

the 5 and the 74 are exactly half way for both of us,,,,im in the torrance / lomita area,,,its LA county...now,,,you posed a challenge.,.,,im ready...looks like your having second thoughts ?..ill take you up the 74 ..matter of fact...ill even drive to the elsinore side,,i would only think its fair to meet half way..,or you can take the 79 or 78 to the 5 freeway.,.and meet me at the 74,,,its half way between the both of us..and ill race your friend with the boxer over 74 as well,,,ill let you both start in front of me..and ill pass the both of you,,,,i dont screw around,,in my car or on my bikes,,..the boxer will beat me on the freeway,,,but ill smoke both you guys in the canyons,,,you got my number....and im really wanting to see if your 308 will outrun me on the freeway....i dont think so,,,cmon scott...lets have some fun....at least lets do a roll on,,,if your not comfortable racing on a two lane road...it doesnt matter to me...ive been doin this for 20 years...im not saying your 308 isnt fast,,,,im sure it is,,,but you posed a challenge,,and im stepping up to it,,,,and it has to be early in the morning 530 am,,when there are few cars and motorcycles,,and oinkers,,,,

 

I had my 79 512BB on the dyno before I had the motor out.
2 pulls, first one 300.9, the second 301.2 at the rear wheels.

Over the years I have seen data on injected 512BB and they seem to be in the
250 to 262 HP. That is a considerable difference.

In additionm all the ones I have driven were a little slower all around than a carb car.

I would say based on my experince, that the factory HP figures of 360 for a carb car is pretty close. The 340HP for the injected car is a little less.

For more data, you can go to the Carobu site.

 

300 hp at the rear wheel seems reasonable, that would mean about 370 at the crank,,,20% loss through the drive train,,,,no way is an injected model 40-50 hp less,,,at the rear wheel,,if thats the case..,..somethings wrong,,,,,doesnt make sense that Ferrari would change the boxer from carb to injection,,,and let go of 40 - 50 HP.,..now im under the impression that the boxer was not meant fort US export,,,so maybe some guys did emission mods,,to get their cars into the states.???..and in that case ..,maybe they lost all that power,,,,but if we stay in europe,,no way theres that much difference between the cars,,,,

 

Ferrari has figured out pretty good recipes for their engines. After neglect, a fresh service makes a night/day difference. The injected Boxer is a bit of a monster. Get on the throttle out of a corner, or accelerate while rolling fast to begin with, and the injection sure isn't holding it back!

 

Sounds right to me......

 

You've gone on endlessly about how great the euro dry sump cars are. Why not take the man up on his offer? Inquiring minds want to know...

 

Dynoed my original untouched car - crappy steel injectors and all. 292hp at wheels.

 

The injected cams are specific to the model. Same applies to the 365 with it's own profile and 512 carb again has a specific set of cams. The advantage the injected car has is the most torque out of the hole and crisp response when set up right - mine does. Can't cheat physics, long runners = torque, short runners = peak HP. Peak numbers are cool to brag about but but it's torque that moves the car. I've driven carbed and injected cars back to back (had a carbed and two injected cars in my care at the same time) and I can say I couldn't really feel a difference. They all feel like boxers and sound like flat 12s. I think people blow the minute details out of proportion. I've yet to hear a carbed car owner say injected is better and vice versa. The only reason why I might get a carbed car is because it's simpler to hotrod than an injected car in that cam selection is more critical with CIS than carbs. Combination is super critical, a dummy can throw in some off the shelf cams in a carbed car and think he did well not knowing if there was a better option. Make a mistake with CIS and it slaps you up side the head instantly. My injected car is getting cams, pistons and a few other neat tricks, watch out PBI! That's a challenge and I know what's in your non-stock carbed engine

 

This is a fun and interesting thread, and for a guy that obviously doesn't know squat about Boxers, I'm not surprised that the stuff written above sounds about right to you, whether it’s true or not.

To set a few things right, the injection on the BBi cost the engine 20 HP. It wasn't done as a performance improvement, but instead to comply with euro smog regulations. Along with the fuel injection, it got wimpy cams as well.

Also, the BBI weighs at least 50 pounds or more than a BB due to the weight of the injection equipment over the carbs.

Plus the TRX tires on the BBI are crap,,,, even more so than the XWX tires on the BB.

Constant fiddling with the carbs on a BB is a myth perpetuated by BBi owners to soothe their feelings, after they realize they bought the wrong car! !

I've adjusted the carbs on my car 3 times, in 6 years, to coincide with spark plug changes/general tune-ups. Other than that, the only time you realize they are there is when you punch the throttle and hear the gorgeous induction wail.

If you’re not familiar with the sound, consider the sound a 12 cylinder engine might make with 12 barrels of carburetor’s perched on top of it, at full throttle, butterfly’s wide open, at say 6000RPMs!

On the other hand, a BBi has by comparison a big 2 barrel carb!

A BBi has an exhaust note. A BB has an exhaust note and an intake note. The one is not the same as the other. The one does not sound the same without the other.

I agree that a BBI is easier to drive than a BB. A BBI is more refined, more civilized.
A BB is a more involved drive, more raw, less civilized, with a bit more HP.
Refined and civilized does not make it faster or better. An SUV is also refined and civilized, and easy to drive.

As for you picking a race with a Boxer, maybe in your dreams! And that goes for any of the 3 models. It doesn’t matter if it’s a 365, a 512 BB or BBi, all three are fast. All three handle corners well enough to scare the dickens out of you and still come through the corner willing to give more!
I’d say the speed and power difference between a Boxer and a 328 would be similar to that between a Corvette and a Toyota Corolla!

Straights, corners, it wouldn’t matter. You loose!
John

PS. Don't listen to Newman cause he's full of BS! !

 

Very kind words John lol. I sell you a carrier then you slam me! Okay were gonna race too, youre on my list of carbed cars to stomp on. Choir boy as Onno calls them, You call them SUV like, it has a "note" LMAO

 

sounds like you know what your talking about,,your 292 HP at the rear wheels is believable,,,,,as far as the euro spec 308...if its way faster than a 328,,,,the motor is obviously not stock,,maybe better cams,,or whatever,,,my 328 has a tubi and a test pipe,,and it goes pretty good,,,but in the grand scheme of things,,,all the 3 x 8 s are pretty slow period, ,,but they certainly cant be matched as far as a driving machine goes,,,unless of course another Ferrari..,.i would love to have a BBi,,,ive always had a fondness for that car,,,they just cost a lot of money.,,,,

 

my 328 will outhandle any boxer,,its documented that they are top heavy and that they lack in the handling department....and i really doubt most of the owners will know how to drive them fast anyways,( not saying you ),,just like 90 percent of all Ferrari owners,,and its the same for porsche owners,,,ive been in CA for 25 years,,,most Ferrairs and porsches in the world,,,and believe me..90 percent of the people buy them for status,,and besides,,nobodys gonna find out anyways,,,just like the other guy....talking in print,,,but unwilling to put it all on the line on a two lane twisty canyon road (its plenty dangerous i know,,,but i dont care),,and as far as a corvette goes..i was chasing one in PV(.2006 model)..once we both came up on a fast sweeper...he *****ed out,,and i flew right by him like he was standing still,,,change the stock wheels and tire sizes on a boxer,,and then it might be quicker,,than a 328,,,my car has 348 wheels on it with 245 45 s in the back,,,and 235 45 s in the front ( p zero s ),,,thats why my 328 handles better than a stock 328,,,,i still think a stock 328 would be able to carry more corner speed than a boxer,,,,anyways like i said before,,,all ferrari guys need to stick together no matter what our opinions,,and differences may be..i love the BBi,,and if i had the money,,,,i would buy one,,,,i guess im partial to the injected model,,,even if its 20 hp down on the carb,,,,,who cares anyways,,right,,? its all personal preferrence,,,,ps,,speaking of corvettes...back in 99,,a guy in a beautiful ZR 1...old style,,,came by me on shorline drive in long beach. at 110..he lost control,,,and hit a light pole and a utility box,,the car exploded right in front of my eyes,,,this idiot,,lost both of his legs...after i had lunch,,and went back the same way,,,the cops pulled me over,,,asked me what happened,,,i asked him,,what do think happened,,..??,,the driving really doesnt happen until your tires break loose,,some guys can hang,,,most cant,,

 

But I'll still count you as my buddy! And I did say that even a BBi can stomp a 328!

John

 

I don't think it is 370 at the flywheel, but I would guess 354 to 360 is reasonable.

the 301 was with a stuck distributor, it turns out ( as I found out today )
the internal advance shaft was seized)

When you take all the base lines, and injected car at 340 is not that different to a carb with 360, / 94%.

I will have it dynoed when it is broken in. I don't know what to expect. I followed Tate's recommendation, we will see, 420, 440,460, who knows.

Newman, I recall you were a little sheepish when you dynoed your car a while back.

Wasn't it in the low to mid 260's.

Let me know when yours is ready.
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Maybe you'll have the chance to drive a Boxer some day, then you can make an informed opinion.

I wouldn't count on that most Boxer owners don't know how to drive them! At least not those that hang out here!
Boxers, any of them, aren't the easest cars to own and maintain, so owning one isn't generally a spur of the moment thought. I've had mine for 6 years, and several of the guys here have had their's much longer than me.
I'm very comfortable driving mine on just about any road, and I'll bet the other guys are as well!

John

 

PBI,
That looks really nice!!!!

John

 

I hear what your saying..I would love to drive one someday....yours is beautiful.....as far as driving goes....driving and driving really fast....and really at the cars limit....are miles apart...

 

That was a pull I made years ago, took several try's and tricks like tire pressures and strap tension to get the numbers. 15% losses put it at 320 at the flywheel that I recall. Even after messing with a stuck distributor I found once the curve was plotted, I wasn't getting advance as soon as I should've. Now it's corrected after hours of shimming. Found a similar problem on the carbed engine I'm building right now. Only a distributor machine can tell you your distributor is in spec every 500rpm - not a timing light.

 

A boxer is uncomfortable and finicky enough not to be a car for poseurs, like the newer ferraris. All boxers require a degree of comitment that is at the outer end of car ownership. There is also a vast difference between a well running boxer and a great running boxer. I would say as a result a higher percentage of boxer owners are "drivers" as opposed to poseurs. This also explains the value difference to a dino, which is far less maintanance intesive, looks cute and is easy to drive. If you are going for the look and ride a dino is an easier and better bet.

Boxers require a high degree of comitment to own, and serious concentration/comitment to drive fast, but when it all comes togrether, the rewards are significant.

Yes probably a stock 328 can corner better than a stock boxer. Put modern rubber on each and is there a difference, for one thing the boxer is going to drive out of corners far harder. Also while a boxer can bite the unwary, like an older porche if you can master it and not make mistakes then it can do things most cars can't. In comparison a 328 is a cute chick car.

On the track on modern rubber my boxer was definatly a match for a 360 going through bends at LRP and quicker out of the corners due to torque and traction. Yes by comparison the brakes are crap, and yes any error will be punished. In this realm, ie modern rubber on both then the 328 does not compare, except maybe it is a more delicate drive which may have its own appeal.

But then I never had any trouble out driving (on a bendy road) my freind in a 944 with a 70 vette convertible, and I saw a stock lotus elise slay everything in its path at LRP. The difference between drivers is usualy far greater thjan the difference between the cars, untill you get to the straights where clearly power to weight ratios have a larger impact than skill.

A boxer is going to be a more physical and heavy car to drive than a 328, a boxer really comes inbto its own at 80+ and its acceleration from 80-140 is going to shame pretty much all but the best(458,gt3) and latest moderns, and even then I am not sure.
lastly if pure driving is your pleasure, it is pretty hard to beat a boxer, except maybe with a 288 gto, or possibly a lotus elise(for slower speed).

In conclusion an hour in a boxer will leave you feeling drained, for good reason. Going 50 in a boxer can feel fast while an suv easily drives past you, and this is with concentration beyond waht you need to go 100+ in a BMW Merc of R8, but then get on it, hyper focus and nothing is going to keep up on the stret. Even a faster modern car will be off pace, because their drivers unless real pro's will never get up to the level of sharpness a boxer demmands. A boxer is like an early 70's can am car for the road, and in that sense quite unlike anything that came before or since.