Mike Sheehan - The Ferrari Curmudgeon

Lots of people smoke crack, too. Doesn't make it right...

 

Unless you break the years apart that is certianly true.

Early NON CAT/CAT Carbed/Injected 2V/308QV/328/328 ABS

All have different current values...

 

There are a few dates of interest:
Initial national smog requirements apply to any car sold in America as of January 1, 1968, as specified in the national Motor Vehicle Air Pollution Control Act of 1965. California passed state-wide regs in '61 that largely started in '62-'65. This is why any car made before 1/1/68 can be brought into the country without any hassle.

January 1, 1975 is the date for impact-absorbing bumpers and side-impact protection. Most car manufacturers started changes before this time period.

An update to the '68 legislation required a smog level requiring catalytic converters as of 1/1/1976, but didn't specifically requre catalytic converters. (Honda had the CVCC engine, which was a) the first engine in the American market to meet '76 standards and b)the only to do so without catalytic converters.) In either '79 or '80, in a move that only special interests could force, catalytic converters were required, irrespective of actual smog output!

There are many individual state regulations -- starting with California, but those were the big national ones.

 

That's a good un.

Dale

 

Yes, there were other changes in various cars, so '73 is a good cutoff but there is some variation.

For example, the '73 Porsche 911 2.4L cars in the U.S. got big black rubber blocks on the bumpers to meet standards in effect prior to 1975. The '72s don't have those. I think the same happened with the E-Type.

But overall, I think the '73-'74 period will always be viewed as a watershed between the classic and the 'old modern'.

The 328 is the odd exception, in that the 5 mph bumper laws were loosened and Ferrari actually created a version of the 308 styled by Pininfarina and not by Washington. Europeans had it better during those years.

 

No, I'm sorry to say it doesn't. I wasn't arguing right or wrong, just against Art's assertion that their only value is their usefulness in driving.

Forget my example of the RL show. This one is better.

I'm not even sure why "beauty" entered in this discussion, I lost track. Maybe it had something to do with how it affects the value of a car.

-F

 

Thanks for the explanation, Jon, it is much clearer for me now.
It is true that, at least for the Ferraris, the consequences were rather not very pretty...until the 328, which, as you say in a later post, was the first one to manage to comply with these regulations almost without modification; save for a nose one inch longer...
We see a lot of imported U.S 328 in Europe, mostly GTS; I even saw my first US 328 GTB two months ago, and this is indeed something rare.
But I leave it here, I am going "off limits" regarding the subject of this topic.
Thanks for explaining that date.

 

My 1982 Chevy Malibu Classic had steel chrome bumpers, so it was later than 1974 that the regulations made them disappear.

 

By the mid-eighties, much of Europe was adopting the same regulations that the US had, in fact they began to adopt some that were even tougher, see the pedestrian protection requirements and the German spec screens on air intakes. By than it was easy for Pininfarina to come up with a 328 "world car".

 

I think the 308GTB was basically unchanged in Europe until catalysts were added 1980, 81.

Member afire has one that is almost identical to my early cars.

 

Hello Big Tex,

Maybe this discussion is really aside of the main topic, but...as far as I know, but there maybe some other members more knowledgeable than I am on the 308...no european 308 have catalytic converters. In so far as french cars are concerned, I am positive: no french market 308 have cats.
I think that the first catalysed cars in Europe appeared with the swiss 328s in 1987; then these cars were also sent to the swedish market, and then, later on, some also on the german market.
But, until the end of the 328 production (= september 1989) the "standard european market cars" (italian, german, french...) did not have catalytic converters. My two cars, both 1989, do not have cats. The GTB is a french market car, produced early April 1989, does not have cats; the GTS, a german market car, produced end February 1989, does not either. I have only seen one french market 328 with catalytic converter, it was a July 1989 produced car, and I am not positive that it was not a swiss market one.
But you will not find a french 308 with catalytic converter...
As for the 328, the main benefit of having cars without cats is not the 10 more horsepower compared to US cars, or 15 more compared to swiss cars (besides, those cars have different gearbox ratios to compensate for the catalycist eating some horsepower); indeed, the cars without cats are more lively, but the engine compartment is less cluttered and you don't have the dreaded "slowdown" light...
Didn't I wrote that before?
Best,

 

I think cats in general only became mandatory in Europe (EU) around 1990.

 

Regarding Sheehan:

Firstly, regarding All Things Ferrari, he is a walking encyclopedia. Regardless of whether or not you enjoy his personality, appreciate him for this fact.

Secondly, Mike approaches the idea of Ferrari ownership from a particular perspective that may not match up with your own. Mike's perspective is one that focuses on the potential of a particular model to appreciate in resale value combined with cost of ownership. Read from this perspective, Mike's opinions and commentaries are generally spot-on.

Regarding the current and future value of any model:

Some of you mistake rarity with desirability. The two are not synonymous. There are many examples of vehicles that, even though produced in very small numbers, are not particularly desirable or collectible today. Likewise, there are many examples of cars that were produced in relatively large numbers and are highly desirable and collectible today (most of the so-called American Muscle Cars fall into the latter category.)

Pop culture tastes do change with the times, but Classics endure. That's why 1920s and '30s Duesenbergs, cars that very few people alive today can ever remember seeing on the road, regularly trade above the USD$1MM mark.

Regarding "art" versus "function":

Some say a car cannot be appreciated unless it is driven. Nonsense. One can appreciate Marisa Miller without ever having slept with her. Likewise, one can appreciate an F1 Ferrari without spinning it around the Mugello or a 250 GTO without thrashing it around Monza.

 

Well, you can certainly appreciate a car sitting in a museum but to experience her as she was functionally designed adds much more value.

 

Are you capable of piloting a top fuel dragster down the track at upwards of 330MPH in under 4.5 seconds?

I'm not.

Likewise, I am unqualified to pilot an F1 car into a hairpin turn pulling 5gs.

In both cases, I better appreciate these vehicles from outside of the driver's seat.

 

Good post.

I would add that the features that make a car "better to drive" in the modern world are largely at odds with what make a car an enduring classic.

 

Hmm... what features are you talking about? A/C?

Dale

PS Maybe this thread needs to move in the direction of defining what makes a classic car? For example, a Dino versus a 308. As a driver, a 308 has it all over a Dino, but the Dino is a classic and a 308 is just another old sports car.

 

Some people pay money for the art work of a four year old. Some pay a lot of money for things
that I can't see any value. So be it. My opinion is that these cars are to be driven not put away and ogled. Jim G has some greatvcars and uses them, as he should that was my point.

As to those who prefer to ogle them: have at it, but I just don't see it.

Art

 

Sat nav, digital instrumentation, Bluetooth, computer-controlled gearboxes, airbags, parking cameras/sensors, early ABS, built-in alarms, 'keyless-go' systems ...

All of this stuff is nice today, crap tomorrow.

On the flipside, I don't know of any classic cars whose values have been depressed by the lack of A/C.

 

I just do not think a date of 1973/1974 can be seen as an absolute as stated before, cars evolved to safety/enviro legislation at different times. I also think that his concept of Enzo/Fiat/LDM "era's" is overly simplified as the history of the company is more complex regarding Enzo's involvement in road cars. The build numbers will take care of most of that along with a model's competition history.

 

I think anyone banking on armies of monied Gen Xers driving up the future prices of 308s may have missed the past 15 years.

As a solid Gen Xer (currently 40), it will be amazing, from my point of view, if I am still *employed* in 15 years, much less worrying about buying and maintaining ancient Ferraris. And according to demographic data, I am apparently in the top 4% of earners for my age bracket (which is pretty terrifying when I consider how far what Im making goes - ie: not very)

I would say possibly ONE or TWO of my circle of friends are more successful than our parents were. The Baby Boomer generation enjoyed a pretty unique position, milked the hell out of it, and is STILL going.

In the recent round of economic calamity four of my friends became unemployed and possibly even unemployable at their old "high" salary (which is low) Of course they were laid off by Baby Boomer era executives who are still quite nicely employed and happily shifting labor offshore

The post earlier about India and China (add Brazil and Russia) is spot on. Whatever *those* folks want to buy is what will have value (and it might be Nissan GTRs for all anyone can predict)

GenX is not going to become a "monied" generation. It is well known that GenX is the first generation to step significantly backwards from their parents. The dynamics of power in the global economy simply shifted around us from a "US is the center of the universe" model to a "privileged few US elites orchestrate the rest of the universe" model. Baby Boomers will give up top tier executive spots when they are rolled out of the office and into their coffins and before they're done they will have "downsized" the workforce to as few high value/high salary individual contributors as possible. It isnt a myth that CEO salary is back up well beyond pre-crash levels while individual contributor level has been trailing inflation for what is inching towards a full decade. Sure there are outliers here - guys 40 who are worth millions - but a few outliers dont make a market. Broad success makes a market and that is missing.

In past decades, US elites created wealth for themselves by building an environment that also created wealth for others. They also groomed successors for takeover. Technology, globalization, and people staying nice and vital and vibrant until they're 100 have changed all of that 100%.

As for socially responsibility, I have no doubt that it won't be long before nearly everything is banned in the EU and I can just as surely predict that *no one* in Asia, South America or Russia (where the money is) will notice or care

 

Don't be discouraged!

I retired in 1981 at the age of 37 after selling my companies. I previously made it through the melt down in 1974 and again through the market depression in1987. Also, the implosions in the early 2000s.

Stay strong, invest wisely and you can weather the storm.

Sparky

 

We are talking about Ferraris and not top fuel dragsters but even so, you cannot fully appreciate a top fuel dragster unless you have driven one a quarter mile. All I'm saying is that, IMO, 40% of the experience/appreciation potential and value to humanity is lost in a museum.

 

GET AWAY FROM ME!!!!!!! Stop trying to get me to take that little blue pill. I don't care if it will make me feel better.

Dale

 

"As a solid Gen Xer (currently 40), it will be amazing, from my point of view, if I am still *employed* in 15 years.....

In the recent round of economic calamity four of my friends became unemployed and possibly even unemployable........"

Really? Unemployable at 40?

That's scary. What industries are these people in?