355-hydraulic lifter failure--where to buy or re-build ?

75,000 MILES....????

Good God, I can't wait until I get there!!!

 

Well well well.

Dave Helms...Scuderia Rampante Boulder CO

 

.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

We have tooled up to rebuild and test these purely out of necessity, I too needed and couldn't get them. Due to there being no cores available I do not sell outright, just rebuild them as we get them in. I keep three sets on the shelf in hopes we dont have to break the sets up with a terminal, non rebuildable piece any time soon.

Currently awaiting shipment on the next batch of uprated new components we had to have made for these, should be on hand first of next week. Having identified quite a number of different failure modes, I have had to custom make components to deal with every one of the problems identified to date. The first 120 of them showed quite clearly what was needed to make a better lifter. At first glance it appeared a straight forward, albeit a complex and precission job, closer inspection showed it to be anything but straight forward.

A Long and Twisted story....... the end result of which should give us a far superior lifter when hand built, blueprinted and tested as we are doing.... something I can assure you was not done when they were first built! There are a number of owners/engineers I use as a debate/design team off site.... this project has consumed us for the better part of two months now.

When this batch of components comes in, I can call this one done. Next.........

 

Hey Dave,

I have always wondered, is it possible to make a retrofit set of hydraulic lifters to replace our 348 solids without changing the entire valve train? Just wondering.

 

By the dubious authority vested in me, I hereby pronounce you "Mad Genius" and assign you the task of creating "Life". To do so, you must, of course, put a sliding roof in the shop so as to capture lightning. As such, you will now and forever be known as Signore Dottore Helms, bs, ms, and phd. Now all you need is a donor brain. I'm aware of one soon to be available in Georgia. Teri Garr makes an excellent assistant.

 

Abby Normal's brain?

 

My engine builder says that some racing outfit in Texas bought out all of the existing stock.

Wallace

 

Check with Norwood Performance...(Dallas, TX).

 

No, not without a good deal of machine work for pressure feed oiling just for starters.

The best thing that can be done for the 4V cars is converting to the Cosworth lash cap design. The reduced weight allows for far greater RPM's but.... Think adjusting the valves is a PITA now? The conversion requires the cams be removed for any adjustments. I did this on all of the 348 race engines but wouldnt consider it for a street engine.

The 348 puck design has been around for coming on 50 years.... that truely is a case of "It anit broke"

 

Nope.... just needed a set of lifters and am angry enough I refuse to deal with the throw away mentality these days. Send them back to Italy..... Yeah, I'll get right on that! I am close enough to being done with the redesign of the 355's that I wasn't going to accept this road block.

There is far FAR more going on with these lifters than I ever realized. The design is sound but how it was applied and the quality of the final product we got..... Now knowing all the data points that we learned in this side track journey, IF they were still available from Ferrari OR the OE manufacturer, I would not buy them, PERIOD. This is a case where the quality control fell through the floor in the manufacture, really quite amassing they proved trouble free as long as they did..... or did they? Suffice it to say, I am replacing them in full sets now at a belt service. Some change/lock and swap belts.... you have to tip over a few rocks to see why these cars have the reputation they do, much of that is induced. Consider the hyd. lifters on the 5V cars the "Garbage Can" at the very end of the oil system

For many years I was positive Ferrari left very little on the table with the 355...... That model is no where near done giving up extra performance in completely stock form. We thought blueprinting a SBC back in the 70's and getting an extra 10% was the end all, that was nothin. A good many years ago I predicted a sorted 355 would be considered a landmark car.... The more I learn, the more staunchly I stand by that statement.

I need a brain, a life, a few bags of money, a Real PAYING job, a whole lot of things.... but that brain from GA... PLAAAEASE... he has that high CG thing going on out there and I cant get my arms around that! I think the home brew has preserved that one for millennia to come.... he now glows in the dark.

Teri Garr and Bernadette Peters..... those are two names that kept this young guy on his toes growing up, a great many assets!

 

My brain is "FOR SALE"....no data, $1Billion USD.......with 63yrs of accumulated data it's a FREEBIE and includes shipping.

 

Will you take a check?

 

Dave- As you no doubt know, the 612 and 599 have caused complaints about being noisy when first started before the hydraulic lifters pump enough fluid to quiet them. Bad enough to where Ferrari is adding snake oil to keep them quiet at start-up. Any possibility what you learned on 355 lifters applying to the V12s and eliminating the start chatter?

575s have the same lifters as the 612, but different drivers and noise environment, so no complaints from 575 owners, including me.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

Yea, why not!! I always can use another Nigerian Cashiers Check in the bathroom.

 

No question in my mind, yes.

This was a situation where we rebuild 2 sets and while doing the third and fourth we started to notice a trend of indicators that pointed a direction. Apart again came the first two sets and sure enough, under a microscope..... A lot was learned in a short time and after closely reviewing 160 pieces, the puzzle started fitting together. After 240 were apart and inspected I am quite sure of the direction required and I had parts made to fix the various problems.

Not all of the problems we have been looking at on these cars is obvious or shows itself clearly. In a number of cases one has to diagnosis some seemingly insignificant issues to uncover some fundamental flaws. I believe we have a firm grasp on this problem now, enough so I am now planning on treating our neighbors to a new engine dyno to prove out theories. Following our SOP, I see no good reason to allow a perfectly good black hole to sit there and not throw good money at it.... Kris is going to choke me this time!

 

Keep the brian for the time being. You need to finish a car before the body gives out. The tech guys frown upon dash mounted life support equipment at the track, the Defib equipment is hell on small gelcell racing batteries.

 

Dave- Sounds good. GM has been making high perfromance lifters for years that last nearly forever and make no noise, as have the hot rod after-market lifter producers. Sounds like you have figured out how to do the same thing with the Ferrari lifters.

Mind if I mention that in the 612/599 forum? Lifters are not that hard to change, except the cams need to be degreed after removal. For a 612 owner, the 5 year cambelt change would seem to be the time to fix the problem and eliminate the need for the snakeoil. Should not be an issue since you are using OEM lifters, even if they have been massaged. The 05 612s should be due for a cambelt change about now.

Taz
Terry Phillips

 

interesting statment Dave....even though not the OP subject, it'd be interesting to hear you expand on this

needless to say, all manufacturers offerings are compromised to some degree, be it build cost limitations, etc
my mustang days i learned that the factory tolerance for spot welds of the unibody, the failure rate could be 33%! Lol

 

The OP got his answers and various sources to solve his current problems so I think it is OK.

Your example is both funny and spot on.

I am now to the point where I believe I have to prove, if only to myself, what I am speaking about with numbers. Friday I got a phone call after a test that was started 8 years ago on a 95 355B, came to an end. I keep trying to find new methods to disprove my theories but with the final results of this last test in... even a blind squirrel.... I suspected the answers would be fairly complex but I greatly underestimated the scope of research this 5V project would require. One day when I have numbers to substantiate what I speak of..... There is already far to much speculation and guessing going on around here while calling it fact, I need not add to that.

Terry,

We can discuss it but I cannot say I have it solved. Until I have an example in my hands and can prove to myself it (612) is the same design with the same failure modes, it is only guessing. I too started out by trying the snake oil method, moved to pumping dry and flushing with high detergent oil..... All proved to be stop gap fixes that only dealt with one of several problems and in no way could be called a "solution". The stop gap repairs only proved marginally satisfactory in less than 20% of the examples. Even what I consider a solution will require time and miles to prove its validity, this will be in Beta for a while yet. The upside is that something is being done towards an end with this problem.

 

too bad, as don't know what speculation you mean, but i've always ranked the 355 in my top 10,
i'm thinking it's something along the lines of a 500+ (600?) hp N/A 40-valve engine?
that'd be sweet indeed!

spot on...spot weld....i see what you did there LOL

 

LOL yes, sounded like a kid there, but in seriousness, sounds like an automotive technical journey, and an interesting one to read, so hope to see your writings on it, being the tech-petrol-head that i am

with the oversquare bore/stroke, and large valve area of the 5 valve head, it should be possible to surpass the 348 comp engines 500hp, but if your target is more low rpm torque and a linear tq curve, that makes it a challenge of a different order....interesting indeed