Ferrari track event at Summit?

Rob, I haven't been to a PCA Potomac DE in many years, so all of this may be out of date, but when I was attending:

- there were always too many cars, so the event was a big parade
- events generally were run by overbearing jerks
- non Porsches weren't allowed

I also feel Summit is a relatively dangerous track.

I can't comment on the very high level of performance observation, because I really don't know the prevailing standard at other clubs holding DEs. I'm just incredibly wary of claims of "mad skills" for marque club DE folks. I've been that guy, in red, and I wasn't all that good.

All my opinion, not trolling. I'd strongly recommend NNJR, or Reisentoter, instead of the Potomac Region, or a group like Chin Motorsports, and definitely VIR over Summit. And not picking on you Rob, no offense intended!

 

in what ways? poor runoff, inadequate barriers, etc.

I've never been to Summit. but the one of the scariest tracks I've been to is Blackhawk Farms, and it's one of the slowest.

 

I wouldn't say The Point is any more dangerous than any other track, but, for there to be an element of risk involved is what this sport is about. It can bite back. Summit has indeed claimed some sheetmetal along the way. But, that's what separates the fast from the I-think-I'm-fast drivers.

The only design "flaw" I can think of at The Point is The Chute. Rather, I suppose it's the fact that if you miss the turn into T5, you'll straight line across the infield into traffic in T8. It's happened before. It seems pretty easily fixable.

CW

 

Will, no offense taken. Summit can be dangerous, especially in T4 and T9, even T10, as runoff into woods or tirewall likely if significantly blow entry. As far as you being that guy in red, I suspect you would be in the top of red group in virtually any region or group.

Surprised at your experience with Potomac PCA, although don't doubt it. Must have been a different group running it. Currently, chief instructors are two regular guys, very aware of safety, and the issue of trains is dealt with constantly. Run groups are large, but, again in my experience, driving and watching red and black groups, rarely do you get caught up. Maybe because others hear me coming, cars move over very quickly as I approach and conversely, I move over quickly for faster cars. And, PCA opened up to non-Porsches a couple of years ago - likely because numbers were down.

I haven't run with NNJR, although I like their new home track and you obviously are quite right about VIR. We are driving that Labor Day, would be fun to see you in the Challenge car, who knows what car Mike L will bring.

Robert

 

I don't see anything inherently wrong with the track design at T4, T9 or T10 (and, actually, T3 is where a LOT of the offs happen, too). These are FAST turns, and if you get them wrong or do something foolish in them, there will be consequences. Not normally fatal consequences...just expensive.

Would it be nice to have more run-off? Sure, I suppose, but I still say that if there's no consequences, what is there to separate the men from the boys, so to speak? That's why when you're starting out, you don't go barreling into corners without knowing what you're doing. You build up your entry, corner and exit speeds gradually. Showing up at a track event without experience and trying to set the fast lap record is a recipe for writing a big check. If people can't handle the speed or the consequences, they should simply slow down and learn how to go faster with the same or better control. I realize everyone wants to be fast and be a hero, but we can go to a zero pretty quickly when things don't go as planned.

CW

 

Perhaps we are discussing two different aspects of DE. We typically have very few, if any boys, at PCA DE's. Most of the drivers respect their cars and understand the consequences of overdriving. However, as you point out T3 is where a lot of offs happen -so, what did SP do - they put a gravel pit on the outside to catch the offs and prevent the cars from running into the woods or tire walls, thereby making the corner less dangerous. As far as handling the speed, at least many of the offs are the result of simply pushing a little too much rather than barreling into corners with abandon.

As far as showing up without experience, many drivers do, but that is why all green group drivers and most blue group drivers have an instructor with them.

With regard to your overall conclusion, I am in complete agreement with you - except that in my experience, it is at events like FATT that this occurs, not at the events that I try to attend.

Robert

 

Reason I mentioned the EMRA time attack was because last time I was there, 2 years ago, it was a small group friendly group not many people know about so not much traffic on the track and lots of seat-time (more than brakes or tires for most). Instructor rides w/ you and once he has deemed you safe, signs off to let you run solo. Plus you get lap times. And it was cheap.

I'm w/ CornersWell on track design but I'm a little biased. Nobody complains about Summit Point rallysprint course having trees as apexes or the VW size boulder in the road or the cliffs into space at Pikes Peak hillclimb. All part of the challenge and excitement.

 

I'll be at Summit Main tomorrow with BMW. They are pretty strict so it's super safe IMO compared to the other ones I've done. I haven't done PCA because it was only Porsches back then and I like the variety out there.

As for the week after I can't; especially 2 weekends in a row.

I'll check the site for the next one and will try to go.. especially since I have a few PCA friends already been asking me to join the club.

 

CW, maybe I just don't like Summit. My favorite tracks are very high speed, big tracks, Sebring, Atlanta, the Glen, Mosport, Road America ... not necessarily tracks you'd characterize as risk free. I'm not a fan of Alan Wilson. A small fortune has been spent at Summit building rinky dink silly "tracks" that no doubt generate great rental income. Little to nothing has been spent on the main circuit, and I guess I think of it as sort of a third tier operation. As I think about it, maybe it's just that taking any sort of risk at Summit isn't worth it to me. I'm not impressed by NJMP, either. VIR, the Glen, even Mid Ohio are all too close.

 

Agree 100%. I will only drive the main circuit, and you are correct that the money has been wasted on the other tracks. Shenandoah and Jefferson are not worth my time.

I've driven most (but not all) of the tracks you have, and I would agree with your preference for longer, faster tracks.

If you ever have the opportunity, do make a trip up to Mont Tremblant. We should all thank Lawrence for resurrecting it.

CW

 

There's your answer. Will, you just don't like it. With the others not that far away, why beat your head against the wall?

Me? I like it. It's fun and a guy with less juice driving better can destroy someone with more power who is not driving well.

My definition of a good corner is one where you say "I could have done that quicker," frequently. That has happened to me for twenty-five years at Summit Main at Turn 3, even though I'm knocking on the door of current SCCA class record times in my twenty-seven year old car. That said, I've been there more than once when someone got killed there...

Agreed, CW. Main is the ONLY one.

Tremblant is fantastic. A real driver's track and T1-T2 are the ball-test of all time. I could watch and listen to good drivers doing that differently (as well as go on that quest myself)for a long time, such is the challenge. Lawrence is a prince for just that philanthropy.

 

PCA session this weekend at Summit Point was excellent - and- we got lucky with the weather, no missed run sessions, as track was dry for all of my black run group sessions. Two of the fastest cars in black were a 'vette and a race prepared Honda. Track was not crowded at all and there were no trains or even significant bunching.

I have a tape of the first session on Friday that I will post as soon as I figure out how to reduce the 24 minutes of run time to an acceptable level.

Rob

 

Having driven Road America a few times, I can tell you that is the perfect track for the cars.

 

You think you have it bad... I have been the FCA track events director and chief driving instructor in AZ. Its like being the Maytag repairman....... the loneliest guy in town.

AZ and SoCal have the best weather in the country and all I can get these guys to participate in is the PPE series (Posing, Parking and Eating)! Simply pathetic!

 

Could not the VA-DC-MD FCA put something together at Summit? Maybe with some partial sponsorship from the local dealer?

As evidenced here the FoW events in the past were well-attended. With the FCA kicking in some $$ and of course the entry fees- I would think this could work financially.

 

you may have to travel a bit further, but the Empire State Region always has a full calendar. The Glen twice, Pocono, NJMP and Lime Rock.

 

Best thing to do is gather together a group of F-cars that want to go and piggyback on TrackDaze or another good event at Summit.

 

I agree with Peter, as FoW has had many opportunities to get back involved in track days and for whatever reason, has decided not to spend any time or effort in this area. Somewhat unusual, as some of the other Washington marques dealers have track days for their customers.

So, for Summit Point - main track, there are a number of options. My preference is to run with PCA Potomac, but I believe you must be a member, not necessarily drive a Porsche. In my experience, this is by far the best run and most qualified club drivers. My second choice would be Seat Time at Summit Point, this is unlimited driving on a few weekdays a year. There are certain quals required to drive, but I think it is basically not inexperienced or at least qualified as solo by certain approved bodies.

The first PCA Potomac session is March 30th to April 1st.

Rob

 

TrackDaze RDE Summit Point Main, July 7-8...

Would be great!

 

ok, sounds like a plan. I am driving SP later in the month, but if we get enough Ferraris to run with TrackDaze, I am in.

Rob

 

I have the July 7-8 TrackDaze event penciled in on my calendar. I mentioned it to a few guys at VIR the other day who may try to make it (Carrera, Noble, Aston, 458 Italia, F430). We should try to get more, for sure.

Rob and Peter- let's see who we can round up!!!

Should we start a new thread?

 

Sure, need to get this event in front of more people. I have a slight problem - just bought a GT3, so not certain if I will bring out the 360 or the GT3. The one consistent issue is that I have so much to learn with both cars, with the added need to start heel and toeing again in the GT3.