Radical Sports Cars ? | FerrariChat

Radical Sports Cars ?

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by Fred2, Jul 23, 2011.

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  1. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    What are your thoughts on one as a track day / Club race car?

    I am looking to get a "pure" race car, that is not a production based car.
    I am looking to learn the basics of race car set up, aero, etc.

    I would like to keep operating costs low, as well as be able to get out of the car for about what I got into it for.

    The other option is a spec racer Ford.

    Formula cars, like a Formula ford are not on the list, as the track day opportunities are lacking.

    Please note that we just completed the schooling requirement for an SCCA license, so I am looking to dip my toes in the water there.
     
  2. Daryl

    Daryl Formula 3

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    #2 Daryl, Jul 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
    I owned and raced a Spec Racer Ford for six years. It was great fun, and a highly competitive race class. The cars are safe and relatively inexpensive to run. You really don't do much setup on the cars other than shocks and roll bar adjustments. The Radical is another animal entirely. Sticky tires, full race suspension, sequential gearbox, etc. With the superbike motorcycle engine they are scary fast. I wanted to move up to one when I sold my Spec Ford, but then the economy tanked. If you are just starting out you might want to try Spec Ford to get your skills up to snuff and build confidence, then try something faster.
     
  3. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Rent a SRF for a season. Cheapest racing dollars you will ever spend.

    Dale
     
  4. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    I would check to see if the radical can be competatively classed in SCCA or NASA. The radical is such a funny car because it can run motorcycle engines and even a V8. So you got to see where it fits and if it is competative or is just in "that" class.

    Personally as an SCCA racer I'm biased to SCCA but race a doorslammer. One cool thing about SCCA is that they have imo the best safety crew and safety systems in the business which are there when you need it all they way to trackside advanced cardiac lifesupport. That is a big deal!

    One of the things I don't like about the radical is that it is billed as a trackday car too. It seems to want to be all things to all people. There is no question it is an awesome car but a trackday car? I don't think so, because trackday in my area is random groups buying the track and bunch of audi, vipers, hondas etc share the track. 90% of the guys are drive to the track doorslamers and 9.9% of the rest trailer a doorslammer. You do not want to get hit by a 4000lb viper in a 1500 LOW radical. One MD a few years ago hit the back of another doorslammer in his SR3 and punched his head into the bumper. He died.
     
  5. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    Thanks for the replies.

    In no particular order:

    I have raced on 2 wheels in the past, and have an affinity to the motorcycle power plants, with their sequential transmissions.

    The SRF seems cool, but I am afraid that it won't be fast enough. I realize that cars are not going to accelerate like 2 wheelers, but I don't want a car that is slow.

    The learning experience with a radical is something that I am after. I want to figure out how car suspensions work, how aero works, and if all goes well, use this as a stepping stone to a proper DSR type car.

    If I really suck at it, I want to be able to get out and still be ale to get back most of the car's price (I am looking at a "seasoned" car)

    Track days are a way to get more seat time. I know I need more time behind the wheel, and the seat time at an SCCA event would be more limited than a track day. Compared to a leather suit and a pair of gloves, any car seem like an impervious fortress of security.

    From what I have seen, the Radical is not the best fit into DSR or CSR, but, I guess that it would be reasonable at a regional level. There also seems to be a class for it in NASA, but once again it is in a catch all class.
    But, seat time is seat time.
     
  6. fc_11

    fc_11 Karting

    Nov 21, 2008
    161
    NY
    #6 fc_11, Jul 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
    i faced similar decision 10yrs ago and was seriously considering the radical (have done FSAE in college the motorcycle power plant had an appeal). the first and second gen radicals were pretty much pieces of junk (rubber bushings in suspension, bad design, etc) and a friend with 20yrs of racing experience rapidly talked me out of it. he suggested i race formula continental or s2. i took a hard look at s2 but its a dying class in the northeast (very active out west), and ultimately went with FC. the 2.0l zetec FC package is hard to beat from a cost and reliability standpoint.

    my suggestion is go to your local SCCA races and see what's popular (aside from the miatas). i'd avoid NASA events - they're not well organized, the safety crews are poor and the classes are run-what-you-brung. DSR and CSR (where the radical runs) are popular in some regions. you'll find that the technology in DSR and CSR is very advanced and the radical might not be the right car to run at the front. you'll also see that DSR and CSR are not cheap to run. motors are custom built (not picked up at local cycle salvage yard) and tend to grenade as they were never designed for lateral g's (improved dry sump systems have helped). transmissions don't do well give the traction load of 2-tires + downforce either. if you want expensive racing then FA, DSR, and CSR are the classes. best bang for the buck are S2, FC, FF.

    i see now you're in NJ. go to the f2000 championship series race at limerock in september and the decision will be clear.
     
  7. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    FC_11 has made good points and understands that scene.

    If you don't want a car that is slow make sure you have the best car in the class you want to run.

    If you ultimately want to go DSR I'd start there and do the seat time there.

    At least on the Westcoast every race weekend has the Friday as a test day. It ups the weekend cost but is tracktime. On the Westcoast I know no one doing trackdays in anything but doorslammers. Some clubs will let you mix in with doorslammers but that is a really bad idea unless you want to win the Darwin Awards.

    While you are out in the open on a MC you are on track only with MC's and falling and sliding apart from the bike is sort of like crashing on karts. Strapped to a car is not as safe as you think. There are all kinds of bad things that happen in cars. Danger is times 10 when you mix impossible to see, very fast, very light racecars with super heavy cars with higher bumpers and blind drivers.

    Also, you want to be able and willing to run nationals with SCCA because sometimes that date is when you are free to go racing. The caliber of racer and the competition is higher but that's how you learn. One of the weird things SCCA is doing are things called "rationals" which is a combined regional with national racers in the same race. Racers pay extra to double dip and score points for the regional tittle and the national tittle. What I don't like about it is that your first license is a provisional regional, then regional, then national. They do this because the warfare in national races is much more intense and ,if you will, dangerous with greater consequences even if you are a backmarker because you might be used a a tool between a war of leaders when they lap you. So regional and national licenses make sence. What does not make sence is telling a driver he needs to get a regional license first then national but yet mix the two license classes in a rational race. IMO if the rational race idea sticks then there should be 2 licenses provisonal and non-provisional.
     
  8. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    Mar 16, 2003
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    "i see now you're in NJ. go to the f2000 championship series race at limerock in september and the decision will be clear."


    I own and race a Stohr WF-1, but I agree with fc that you need to look hard at the two "pro" fc series. I'm considering selling the Stohr and buying a Mazda powered fc.
     
  9. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    #9 ProCoach, Jul 24, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2011
    +1,000!

    That said, for those of us that like fenders around us, there were 19 S2's at Mid-Ohio in June, there will be 20+ at the Glen in September and 25+ at VIR in November.

    Far from a dying class and superb if you like a full aluminum monocoque slick-shod car instead of a pedestrian tube-frame treaded tire car (SRF) without the accompanying frequent engine replacements in the "open" engine classes (CSR/DSR).

    YMMV.
     
  10. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    #10 ProCoach, Jul 24, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2011
    Will, the Ford Zetec is a Ford Europe engine.

    The Duratec (which is a variant of the Mazda MZR) is a completely different engine.

    The FC's running in the Pro and Club series are powered by Zetecs.

    From Wikipedia: "Production of the Zeta family lasted from September 1991 through December 2004. Displacement ranged from 1.6 L to 2.0 L.

    It was replaced in most applications by the Mazda MZR-based Duratec 2.0, though some Zetec-SE engines were used as replacements on the lower end. Ford Power Products sells the Zeta in 1.8 L and 2.0 L versions as the MVH."

    It's a great series that Mike Rand runs. http://www.f2000championshipseries.com/
     
  11. LMPDesigner

    LMPDesigner F1 Rookie
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    #11 LMPDesigner, Jul 24, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  12. Feffman

    Feffman Formula Junior
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    I've onwed a Radical SR3 for three season now and love it as a track-day car. It's as fast, if not faster, then nearly everything (some high HP cars take us on the straights) at a track event. The SR3 has been reliable and take s afair amount of abuse. If it breaks, we roll it into the trailer and bring it home.

    I doubt it will be competitive in SCCA racing against the Stohr, West, etc. racers as technology puts them a bit ahead.

    Feff
     
  13. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    Feff

    Is there any problem in mixing cars like the Radical or Stohr with the door slammers?
     
  14. chris marsh

    chris marsh F1 Veteran
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    I thought I was just looking at this car on ebay today but I see it is not the same one.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290587299032&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:MOTORS:1123&clk_rvr_id=250232683381


    I bought an '01 Radical Prosport back in January. I wanted to see what I thought of this class as I have been raccing an old Porsche. This sport racer is fun although I am not competitive and frankly it is so fast it is a little bit scary.

    Good Luck!

    And to answer the question about mixing with door slammers at open track days: I did take it to an open track day and ran in a group just for liecensed race drivers but there were sedans as well as open wheel cars...it was no problem at all because I was blowing by everyone else so fast.
     
  15. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    Which engine is in the Pro sport?

    I have seen some with Kawasaki engines ( I think), but I thought the Busa was the std mill for Radical.

    Can you drop a busa mill in one if it is set up for something else?
     
  16. fc_11

    fc_11 Karting

    Nov 21, 2008
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    This is why you don't mix racecars with converted street cars: http://www.sunjournal.com/node/641138

    Second hand information, but I'm pretty sure he was driving a radical in a mixed class and ran into and under the back of a stopped street car.
     
  17. GGamble

    GGamble Karting

    Jul 1, 2007
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    Go to the Radical Driving school at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch. I did and the only down side is that I now have a SR3. Yes they are fast as hell BUT... They do what you ask. If your have under steer... lift just a TOUCH transfer weight to the front and turn the car. yank your foot of the throttle in a corner and get the 720 degree view of the track you just asked for :)... When driving with PACHYDERMS (door slammers) you have to watch them like a hawk since they will never see you. But they will never our brake you or go though turns as fast as you do. Love my Fcars but nothing touches my SR3 for pure driving pleasure!!!
     
  18. GGamble

    GGamble Karting

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    #18 GGamble, Jul 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I would get the SR3 RS. They come the the Busa 1500 CC engine in them. Paddle shift, big brake, big tire and high down force options!
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  19. ACross32

    ACross32 Formula Junior

    Jul 16, 2007
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    Not sure if this would interest you, but I'd check out Palatov. Some guy started a blog designing his own track cars several years ago and has now started a small company that makes (so far) two cars: the smaller DP4 and the slightly larger, faster DP1. The DP4 sounds like it starts at a good price.

    Website:
    www.palatov.com

    Blog:
    www.dpcars.net
     
  20. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    The car you showed on the eBay link is local to me. The guy selling it is a straight shooter and takes good care of his stuff. You can be pretty confident to check this one out further for anyone that is interested.

    Radicals are great and welcome at most lapping days. They blow any road car out of the water in terms of performance and cost a fraction to repair if damaged. Also Radicals hold their value pretty well and no one will pay less because it has been 'tracked'.
     
  21. Feffman

    Feffman Formula Junior
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    No. We've run the SR3 in our events for several years now and at a number of PCA track events with no issues. Braking rates are the biggest issue for cars behind, but the Raddy does have brake lights.

    Feff
     
  22. psw

    psw Formula 3

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    #22 psw, Aug 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I love my SR3 RS, awesome track day car or excellent race car, relatively cheap to run as race cars go, the grip is so far beyond any road car or modified road car, easy to drive and just more fun than you can imagine.

    We have 2 great Radical race series here in Australia, either state based or a national series. The National series is one make, the state based allows open wheelers also. There is over 65 cars down here now, with full arrive & drive operations in 2 states. I highly recommend the late model cars.
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  23. Fred2

    Fred2 F1 World Champ
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    #23 Fred2, Aug 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Would this be considered a car with fenders, and OK for the typical track day?
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  24. stereotaipei

    stereotaipei Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2010
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    What would you chose between buying a second hand Scud or a new Radical SR3RS? Focus would be on track days, no racing. Limited use of the Scud on open street as I have already a 458.
    what would be most fun? and safest?
     
  25. psw

    psw Formula 3

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    I would get the SR3RS hands down, I have a Scud & there is just no comparison on track. The Radical is cheaper to run on track, is infinitely faster than the Scud, which I have tracked.... Radical feels, handles & goes like a real race car, Scud is a road car it is not a real track car, if you drive each back to back, the Scud feels like a boat on track. My Radical is 13secs a lap faster than my Scud on a 1.31 lap.

    I think the Radical is definitely more fun, & inherently a safe car it has race car engineering built in, FIA crash tested front cell & optional full onboard fire extinguisher available.
     
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