The rioting continues... BBC News - Further riots in London as violence spreads across England Here are some pictures sourced from another part of the BBC's website (direct link): Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login My wife's sister lives in one of the affected areas. She was saying that her local shops were trashed while the police watched (not intervening) for 3 hours. As it was winding down, the police went knocking on doors to advise residents to remain indoors and then left. There have been other reports that rioting and looting have been going on in areas without any police to be seen. A senior police officer was on Radio 4 this morning was saying that the police deployed every unit and resource that they had, but just that the scale of the problem was so large that they could not get to every area. In the areas they could get to, police were attacked with petrol bombs and the officer in Radio 4 said that over 50 officers were injured on duty last night. There's a clip running on BBC News 24 of an officer on a megaphone from inside a van making the following annoucement: "This is a public order warning. Will all members of the public please disperse now, or force may be used." It sounded like an empty threat. Clearly, the situation is completely out of control: the police are outnumbered and overwhelmed. The rioters know it and they're taking full advantage of it. Night times are more like a war zone than a protest area, so I think the official response should be one of calming a war zone. However, Teresa May was being interviewed this morning saying that "policing has always -depended on the support of communities, and that's what we need now". Well, that's true in day-to-day life but in exceptional circumstances such as this, what are the general public going to do? The government is also seemingly ruling out the use of water cannons upon rioters/looters and have unequivocally ruled out the use of the army in restoring order. The Reeve's family store, in a listed building owned for 5 generations, was torched by rioters (screenshots from the BBC video in the first link): Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Just what exactly is it going to take for the UK government to grow a pair and order an indomitable show of force to seize London back for those on the right side of the law? Family and friends in London are terrified. -Andrew.
It's a shame to see, especially when the world is watching in the build up to the Olympics. I have some sympathy with the police; they got criticized for being too aggresive during the G20 protests and now they're being criticized for not being aggresive enough.
I do too. During the G20 protests, I don't think we quite got to the stage where huge sections of the city were torched. I also was supportive of the police response as a whole during the G20 protests. Here, I think the police need some help and a free hand to act as they see fit. The government has removed tactics from their response (i.e. no water cannons) and have ruled out assistance in the form of additional manpower from the army. Although, I am now hearing they're drafting in additional officers from other forces around the country to bring London under control, so that's a good thing. The Prime Minister is due to speak shortly, so we'll see what he says.
I live literally up the road from Clapham and 2 months ago lived right on Lavender Hill, about 50 metres from where the main destruction occurred. Pretty sure they'd have gone to town on my 360 ! Absolutely disgusting scenes, shops set on fire with no regards for the flats and people who are above the flats absolutely disgusting video http://www.lbc.co.uk/watch-rioters-steal-from-injured-man-43364 This sums things up http://twitpic.com/633c2d#.TkEDlwHppEM.facebook We have gutless and weak leadership. Theresa May is out of her depth and hasn't got the first clue what to do and as London burns for a third night Cameron's having a cup of tea at 9am and having a meeting. They don't care about the people who are losing their business's and sources of income, they don't care how much this is going to cost the tax payer to clean up and the insurance premiums that are going to come. They only care about politics and damage limitation for themselves. Bring in the army and set a curfew. It would stop the rioting immediately. Which has to be the priority. Conduct door to door searches for criminals and stolen property. It won't be hard to find. Spending money on the olympics and cutting 20% of the police - that's the leadership we have.
This is terrible, I hope all you lot still in UK stay safe. It's time the Government stopped p*ss*ng about and sent in Troops and Water Cannon and stop the communications dead. The scum who participate in this madness need their arses kicking big time, lock 'em all up together and throw away the key, be interesting to see what happens when they turn on each other...animals all of them, would make great TV.
National Service seems to work ok in other countries. Negative energy & rampant hormones mixed with boredom and lack of hope - not good.
I'm very angry with the way this is being 'dealt' with. Mainly because it isn't. If I was in power I'd have shipped some troops out there with rubber bullets. Anyone that shows any form of aggression gets shot. If anyone has a weapon they get shot with real bullets. The UK is being FAR to PC. They are afraid of bad publicity. It should be over. People are acting like f'in rabid dogs and should be treated as such. I'm telling you, 6 hours of army being there and a couple of hundred being shot and it'll have calmed down. The UK has been so PC about EVERYTHING and now they're being paid back. It's not just their policy of giving money to everyone that just comes to their country, even though they aren't British. Anyone can claim human rights and normally win. Child murderers suing the state because they feel that because their playstation was taken away in prison it was their human rights. When the UK has absolutely no money at all they still continue giving billions to countries such as India, who don't even need it. Only because it's politically correct. The UK has been on a path of self destruction for far to long now and now needs to fight back. Tough for all the scroungers who claim all sorts of things. Work for your money or starve. If you rob someone, get your hand cut off. Take an example from countries like Singapore.
As of now, I don't know what the government will do, but if they order water cannons and more, i.e. call out the army, then they are admitting that there is an insurrectionary feel to the situation. Perhaps the government is gambling that an extra number of police, with different dispersal tactics, will do the trick.
It's all so senseless. They seem to be saying "We hate the Police for shooting a guy so we will show our anger by destroying our community and making sure the police get a nice overtime bonus in their pay packets". Idiots! Here is some shocking footage of a shop being looted: http://i.imgur.com/C5XQm.gif
Its one big joke, the police are toothless as they are frightened the rioters will sue them if they get hurt, and they are probably right the problem is that the politicians think the world expects us to be PC about this, but the country itself doesnt care - we want justice done, and if that means some rioters have to be hurt, maimed or shot to achieve calm, so be it
Yep, there's some brain dead t0$$3rs out there. Hope it's quiet for you tonight. Agreed. They can't use boredom/lack of money/no employment as an excuse then. Generally I agree with you. Putting the army on the streets is a tacit admission that the police aren't able to cope, or be effective, for whatever reasons. The army will only be of any use if you let them be more aggressive with the rioters, and if you're going to do that you may as well give the powers to the police. Also, once you've had a few days without any trouble the army will have to be withdrawn and the rioters will re-appear knowning that the police can't/won't do anything. That said; perhaps it's what we need for people to realise that the police and justice system is broken and needs a fresh look, and then perhaps we'll start to treat criminals like criminals.
Oh yes - easy to say. How are you going to enforce a curfew? Shoot anyone who breaks it? That would certainly get everyone on side - not! The number of police or army that would be required to enforce it would be enormous. These things are easy to say, but not so easy to implement.
Do you really want to see such things used on the UK mainland for first time ever? Definitely a downward spiral. I'd rather see the police try and sort it out in a more traditional way first. But then don't I recall that you favour arming all the police? Or is that my imagination?
Absolutely! I'd rather see tough tactics employed by the police than see historic buildings destroyed, fire raging in shops below flats with people leaping out of the upstairs windows to escape, businesses and livelihoods ruined through looting, and town centres trashed. I really do believe that not having police regularly armed puts them at a severe disadvantage when it comes to rapidly and effectively restoring order. Don't feel sorry for those who might be injured by a heavy police response - they're the ones trying to unravel the fabric of our democratic society to bring chaos and agony! And these particular rioters and looters are not standing up for anything as noble as a political ideal... they seem more united by the pleasure of a blazing building or fulfilling greed by theft. In terms of their response, the British police are institutionally very timid. They want to project an air of compassionate law enforcement (which is admirable), but they've gone too far and now have a perceived lack of authority. My wife's sister watched the police standing around watching the looters destroy her local shops for three hours before the looters left because everything worth stealing had been stolen. The residents were then informed to stay indoors and the police left. The police were completely powerless to do anything about it. That emboldens rioters/looters. If a strong response had been given on night 1 and 2, I don't think the scale of night 3 would have been as bad. As it was, people were emboldened by the belief that they could get away with these crimes unpunished. As it stands, the police response has finally been escalated, but we're into night four and it's still going on: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675 I recognize that the maintenance of law and order is a fine balance. On one side of the see-saw you have a Gestapo-like institutional terror oppressing the people, and on the other you've got a force of bureaucrats who document crime rather than prevent it. I think the UK's see-saw has tipped too much in favour of the latter and the balance needs redressing. The police need to be given more power, more tools so that every street officer can instantly escalate their response if necessary (all the way to lethal), and then I would trust in the honour and integrity of those who serve. For these riots now, if I was in power I would... Equip police with guns loaded with less-than-lethal ammunition (rubber and plastic bullets) - I think they announced they might actually be doing this. Alert the army to go on standby, ready to deploy at notice. If police are unable to deal with everything on the night, have the army pick up the slack or be the ones to use the rubber bullets in the more violent areas. I wonder if this has been discussed by the Prime Minister. Impose a sunset curfew, with everyone caught after it searched for looted goods. Anyone resisting to be apprehended. Rioters to be quelled with force. Ban hats and hoodies from the towns, so potential looters could not conceal their identities from CCTV cameras. And I would gradually ease off those measures as calm was restored. All the best, Andrew.
Well then Andrew, you and I must agree to disagree. The police have not got it right so far in the last couple of days, but that is no reason for a knee jerk reaction dismantling what has worked well for us in the UK till now and replace it with a quasi police state.
I guess you wouldn't vote me into public office then. I wouldn't suggest curfews and spot searchers as a long-term solution, but it does seem that we need to do something drastic to break the cycle of people thinking they can get away with rioting and looting. All the best, Andrew.
Three killed 'as they protected their area from looters' http://www.metro.co.uk/news/871907-birmingham-riots-three-killed-protecting-their-neighbourhood-from-looters The trio were struck by a car which mounted a pavement in Dudley Road at around 1am this morning. According to the blog Birmingham Riots2011, whicuses content drawn from social media sites, the men had been drawn into a fight with looters as they defended their properties and businesses from rioters. Up to 80 bystanders were said to have witnessed the incident. This morning an angry crowd from the Asian community converged outside the City Hospital in Birmingham. One of the dead men has been named locally as Shazad Huessain, according to the Birmingham Mail. Mr Huessain, along with another man, were pronounced dead at the scene, while the third man died in hospital at about 6.30am. A man has been arrested and a car recovered, but police were not yet connecting the deaths to the riots. The police asked for witnesses to come forward and said forensics wil examine the vehicle. The ambulance service confirmed all three men were in collision with a car. A spokesman said: 'The incident took place close to the Jet filling station on Dudley Road in Winson Green at approximately 1.15am. 'Three ambulances, two rapid response vehicles and an incident support officer was sent to the scene. 'When crews arrived, they found around 80 people at the scene with resuscitation ongoing on three men.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024375/BIRMINGHAM-RIOTS-3-Asian-men-killed-hit-run-protected-neighbourhood.html
Why don't you apply some common sense. There were very specific areas where the riots occurred. How do you enforce a curfew, easy, you detain anyone who breaks the curfew, you take down their details and you issue them with a community service order. Fine, some will break the curfew and not got caught, but that's not the point, it's serves as a deterrent (which was badly needed) and an instant punishment without the need for arrests, jail time or a court. I'm guessing you didn't actually see anything that occurred personally Francis. Just commenting from an armchair to the aggression, violence and disregard for anyone and anything. Shops were set on fire with no regard for who or what were in the flats above. I simply cannot believe there were not more deaths. As far as i can see, it doesn't get much worse or serious than that. Strong action has to be taken. The rioters had an absolute field day on the first night. They could do what ever they wanted and there was no one to stop them. I find that completely unacceptable, do you? Tear gas, water cannons, rubber bullets - it's exactly what this scum deserves and what they should have got. The main point here was that there was no deterrent. There was nothing in the minds of these yobs to think twice about their actions.
That's not true. On the first night the police simply needed backing up with more bodies on the street to enforce. If they cannot find enough police to sort the situation out, then someone needs to come in and help. Th army is the solution i can think of that could have been deployed that same night and been on the streets on London to stop what was happening. They could have remained until the police has sufficient numbers to cope. The first and second night, the police backed off and allowed the scum to do anything they wanted because they were powerless. I don't care what message bringing in the army gives out, if it helps stop what's happening, if it helps stop the chances of people being killed and helps stop people losing their livelihoods then thats exactly what needs to happen. Weak and gutless decision makers allowed riots to occur for 2 nights without much of a fight back.
Shocked to see Cameron reviewing the use of curfews for and possible, similar situations. Has my support on this 100% and it seems the support of the police. They don't seem to think it would be too difficult to enforce. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14485592 This is an interesting read; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-14501282
No Stimo, I didn't witness any of the riots first hand, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be allowed to have and voice an opinion. I will be interested to se what the outcome of the re-examination of the curfew powers produces. To expand on what I wrote last time, I question whether a wide ranging curfew would be acceptable to UK citizens as it would impede normal life in large areas. if it was restricted to small areas then surely the troublemakers would just move elsewhere. If it was done on an age restriction basis, how would the authorities determine how old someone is on the spot? We don't carry ID cards in this country (and long may we not to be forced to IMHO). The authorities may indeed decide it is practical to go down that track, but I'm sure that the points I raise are those that they too will need answers to before proceeding. As far as using the army - well there do now seem to be enough police to carry out the task. The problem was the lack of a decision to deploy them, and the tactics even when they did have a presence. I question whether it would be any quicker to mobilise troops - wherever they might be located which may be equally f ar away as some of the police reinforcements.
The thing is, a normal citizen wouldn't be caught up in a riot at 2-4am. They'd see the disturbance and avoid it, would be in their own homes, or trying to flee. I think if someone is dressed to conceal their identity (drawn hoodies on a warm, dry, summer's night), congregating in quite large groups, seemingly quite rowdy, etc... the police will be able to determine a profile to go and question the group and/or order them to disperse. I think in that the police found it difficult to deploy their resources, the army would have been good to bring in earlier on as a stopgap measure. As the police seem to be handling things much better now, I think there is much less of a need for army assistance. Perhaps it is time to revisit the idea of ID cards and making it an arrestable offence not to be able to present them. I myself am never without a driver's license, so it is certainly not a hardship to have identification on you and be able to present it upon request to a law enforcement officer. All the best, Andrew.
