Brake upgrades

It´s weird that Porsche and Ferrari put their name on brake calipers that are not made by them, they don´t write Porsche on the alternator or Ferrari on the starter motor.
Brembo decals are all over ebay.

 

Mine are not floating. Just be sure center the calipers using shims. Also, take care bleeding the system - you don't want any air.

In thinking about the floating rotors, I would guess they would be "better" (read: more forgiving as things wear). However, that setup seems to cost a lot more. A real plus would be changing rotors - bolting on and safety wiring the fixed rotors to the hats is a PITA.

As for real time performance, and I should mention that my car was used primarily as a track car, I've very please with my braking system. Never an issue or concern.

If you set up your car with larger calipers/rotors and set the bias correctly, you will be amazed on the improvement over the stock brakes.

I remember when the 308s first came out and appeared at the track, the owners were always complaining about the brakes as being the weak part of the car. Series 2 E-Type Jags were out braking them. (Now that's a scary thought...)

 

Heat dissipation is a major consideration. Don't discount brake ducting.

 

I see there are some rear brake ducts on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ferrari-308-Rear-Brake-Cooling-Air-Intake-Ducts-Scoops-/370393188945?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item563d278a51

Also, check with your local speed shop - they will have most, if not all the components to make up the fronts. Simply bring the brake air duct hose to the center of the rotor along the A-arm. I've seen pictures of this on 308s - maybe on fchat?

Post a picture of what you come up with.

 

Hey big S,
How is the peddle feel..??

if needed,, I will be running a larger Master Cylinder.
I am thinking....
1) the new brakes will stop you faster, as much as your tires will allow.
2) the new brakes don't need as much pedal effort,, thus, loss of feel.
3) your going to get more pedal travel with bigger calipers, using your 23 mm stock Master. ( probably ok)
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,,

Thus, in restoring feel and restoring pedal travel by accident, just ratio the surface areas of the pistons in the calipers to the NEW 25.4 mm Master.

Lets see,, Cake are square...?
What do you get when you measure the circumference of an Igloo and divide by the diameter of an Igloo.....????? Eskimo pie.

Edwardo

 

how do you use these?

 

If I´m not mistaken those are original to the US version i, my car had those but they were more directed at the catalists and not the brakes. Better fabricate your own, certainly at the price the ebay seller is asking.

 

Looks good. What you did will make a difference. If you need more cooling, bring the duct to the center of the rotor. The attached picture shows the Phoenix spindle duct holder for C5 Corvettes.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Forget the infrared pyrometer and just wait until you have time to rig the thermocouples correctly. Basically drill a hole in the top of each brake pad and push the thermocouples into the pads. Put K leads on the ends of the wires and run the wires back up to your data logger. The Omega HH309A is a 4 channel digital data recorder with real-time display that will work fine for your needs. Set the sampling rate at 1 sample every .50 or 1.0 second, mount the data logger somewhere in the car where you can see it, then go out and do some repeated, heavy braking. When you start to feel the onset of brake fade, make note of the elapsed time showing on the data logger screen. Then download the temp vs time data to your laptop for viewing and you'll be able to fin the exact pad temp where fade occurs in your system. Keep playing around with ducting, bias bar adjustment, pad selection etc and re-test, analyze the data, and play around with it more.

If you have any sort of GPS based data acquisition/lap timer/accelerometer available to use, it will probably have the ability to store deceleration G as well. With some careful synching of the Omega data and data acquisition system, you can confirm the point of fade by watching for the decline in the peak decel G over time.

 

Hi Sean,

My internet has been down for a few weeks and my kid is getting married, so i missed this whole thread.

In cruising all of the the car specific threads, i have noticed everyone complains about stock brakes when the car is tracked or driven really hard on the road - everybody from the 308, 328,348,360,430. Some of these die-hard track guys are going through a set of pads AND rotors in one weekend. It seems that the pand/rotor wear go up exponentially with heat.

My very first post on the chat was what to do about upgrading the 308 rear brakes. At that time Brembo had a good front kit but it was too heavily biased to the front.

Here are some details of my efforts to slow the green car down:

F-50 front calipers 44-48 pistons with girodisc adaptors
F-50 355-32 rotors on girodisc custom hats
360 330-28 rear rotors, more Girodisc hats
360 calipers 38-42 pistons with Martins brackets.
Locally machinned brackets to mount the 360 p brake on the rear of the upright, in the stock caliper location.
Rear upright front ears machined flat and helicoiled to move the new calipers to the front.
Wilwood 1-1/16th mc, modified with new hold down brackets, guide tube and pushrod.
Tilton engineering lever type prop valve, (to replace the stock unit which comes in way too late for the bigger set up.
All calipers and front rotors were used, as was the prop valve.

My best guess on calliper sizing is to go for just a bit, (10%)rear brake torque than you think you need and use a prop valve to taper it off to maximise the rear brakes without locking the rears.

The reason that you simply cannot bolt up the later model brakes is that we do not have EBD, (Electronic Brake Distribution), or ABS, so we have to size it just right.

I will throw in a few shots then i have to go help get ready for my sons wedding this weekend and visit witht the out of town family.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

How did the brake feel while running the mountains, especially during hard braking?

 

I think Marcell Massini has had something like this for a long time? There is a 40lb unsprung weight reduction,as the stockers are cast iron,is that important? I wouldnt want any cast iron on a ferrari.Maybe Pad,Bert or Chris and Marcell could commet.

 

The cast calipers and discs are seriously heavy The F-50 set up weighs less than the stock caliper and disc.
Reducing the caliper weight will enable the wheel to more easily follow the road in bump or droop.
There is a lot of weight in the hub area of the disc that essentially does nothing.
Rotor weight is significant for both its "dead" weight and its rotational inertia. I have heard that because of the rotational inertia, a pound of disc, (or wheel or tire) reduction will have the same effect as removing 1.6 pounds of chasis weight. The 355x32s are more rotor than i need.

But, even if the Brembos weighed the same as stock, they may be of benefit because of larger pads and the ability to fit around a larger diameter and or thickness rotors.
If a larger pad is needed for brake durability, then the multipul pistons offer the advantage of more even pressure on the backing plate, as opposed to the single large piston found in the ate brakes.
Perhaps their biggest advantage is provided by having a range of piston sizes available to balance the front/rear braking effort without the complexity of the dual master cylinder/brake balance bar.
One final note, If the stock caliper flexes, (and I don't know that it does , even under track use), then going to a brake system with a more rigid caliper may prevent "caliper flex" and promote better feel.

hth,
chris

 

Hi Sean,

Was that 450 for the R4-s, or another vairant??? Very cool intakes for the cooling ducts, (no pun intended

What did you do to minimize the air leakage at the rotor eye???

I ahve always wondered about the front/rear brake pad temps during tracking. I know the fronts do the lion's share of the work, but if the rears are frying and not able to do any real work, then , we need to address that as well.

Tell us a bit more about the thermocouple isntallation and temp tracking.

Thanks,
chris

 

The stock 308 brakes are old junk. If you run hard on a 5000 mile road trip thru the rockys and use the pads up quickly, they wear uneven and then the right rear caliper will stick.@ that point you dont need a parking brake anymore and she will turn right xtra good. Everybody has trouble with the right rear caliper sticking. If your 308 is hard to roll back and forth in the garage your rear caliper is sticking.You can rebuild them and they still very soon will stick. Thank you for helping us

 

Hi barnyard,

I have run the ATE, cast iron rear brakes on my 914 for probably 80 k miles, then installed the 914-6, (308 rear calipers) and run them another 20k as well as putting 15K onthe stock 308 brakes and never had sticking, leaking, pulling issues.

I drove them so hard, i boiled the brake fluid and "enjoyed" smoking pads, on occasion.

Very Poor e brake parformance, only on the 308. The 914 had sufficient leverage built into the cable pull linkage so that they worked well.

After 85K miles and 38 years,my dad's ATE iron brakes are showing a bit of sticking and i will address that soon with new pistons and seals.

Hope al is well,
chris