NEED HELP -- roof won't go up

This has developed into quite the thread! Trent, if I ever need any help I'm driving to the coast to see you.

 

I would still like more information on the failure (prev post Questions), but here are the next steps:

WARNING: Please use multiple people when working on the convertible top, it can be dangerous to you, your limbs, paintwork, and your top mechanism. Be slow and safe.

High Level View:
A. Hydraulic pump seems fine, relay and fuse fine. Low voltage drop across relay 30-87.
B. Switch seems fine, you push it and something happens (maybe not what you want, but something)
C. Thermister in Hyd Motor, likely fine if motor is spinning, if it was reporting an overheat situation the ECU T019 would not trigger the Hyd Motor Relay N011
D. Sensors: Microswitches, Etc, on to-do list to verify.
E. Hyd Solenoids, will check next because they are easy.

Key:
T019 is the Convertible top ECU.
T019-A is the top most electrical connector (harness, molex, whatever you may call the connector)
T019-B is the second from the top
T019-C is the bottom connector

1. If the hydraulic motor is working the thermistor is likely fine, its pin 1 [GM] and pin 2 [GV] of harness connector T019-A (top connector on ConvtTop ECU). G=Yellow M=Brown V=Green (some of the color codes dont seem to match up and 360/430 might also be different colors, so try and just use the pin numbers)

2. The Hyd Solenoids can and should be checked several ways each.
a. Check the ohm reading (volt meter on Ohms, 100 ohm scale is fine) at the connector to the solenoid. Car OFF, Unplug Solenoid connector, gently push in the two volt meter probes, one in each pin, read OHM load. Do this for all solenoids.
b. Same as (a.) but do this from the ECU, with the ECU harness disconnected. Its the bottom connector T019-C, pins 2, 4, 5, 1, 7, 3.
*For test (b.): These solenoids are +12v triggered, so you can OHM test them by placing one lead of your voltmeter on a known good chassis ground, and one on the wiring harness pin as indicated.

3. The sensors. This will be tough, you will need to actuate the top manually (use two people minimum to prevent damage). Actuate through the entire UP and DOWN and record when each of the sensors triggers. There are two ways to approach this because a logic table does not exist (that I can locate).
a. Put the top up and down, recording when/if each sensor is actuated electrically, then investigate the sensor that does NOT actuate during each cycle.
b. Determine when the sensor should be triggered, then make sure it is triggered.
You can access all sensors from the ConctTop ECU T019, connector A (top connector)
*All sensors are ground triggered, so on your voltmeter, connect one lead to +12v (battery or elsewhere), then the negative test probe will be used to determine the microswitch value.
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12.0 to 12.2 ohms is great. I=E/R so 14v(engine running) / 12.2ohms = 1.1 Amps which sounds good. The fact they are all about the same is the real test. So lets rule out the solenoids. The test from the ECU will just eliminate any issue with connectors and/or wiring. Worth the 10-15min to verify I think.

After that it is off to the microswitches. The key here is to have ample help and an easy way to measure the continuity of the microswitch. I have changed my test methology for you to make it easier.

1. Does your meter have a continuity test mode, usually indicated with a ")))" speaker type icon, usually at the base of the Ohm scale. Basically where if you touch the leads together the meter will BEEP? If so we will call this the continuity-beep mode. Then you can stick one volt meter lead to Ground, and put one in the pin hole for the microswitch as indicated in the graphic. When the microswitch is triggered (microswitch CLOSED) the meter will beep, and will keep beeping until the switch is OPEN. Then you cal listen to the reading instead of watching the screen.

For the microswitches make a table like:
Switch# 1 2 3 4 5 6
Top Position:
Open 0%: OFF : OFF : ON .... (closed aka car wash position)
Open 10%: OFF : ON : ON ...
Open 20%: OFF
Open 30%: ON
Open 40%: ON
....
Open 100%: ON (top down driving)

It should not matter if you are opening or closing the top.

It might be a easier to put the top in a test position, stationary in that position and then run through all 12 microswitches for that position, then move it 10% ish and run through the 12 again.

 

Trent,

Your knowledge is very impressive. I just read this thread with great interest. I hope I never have a roof problem like this, but I am enjoying learning the thought processes that go into diagnosing a complex problem. Newbydude is fortunate that you are willing to share your time and expertise.

All the best!

 

Because the top will not be actuated and the car will be OFF (Ignition OFF as well) the Connector-A from the ConvtTop ECU can be unplugged. When it is unplugged, there will be easy access to all of the microswitch values via the pins on the connector. Please note you should not try and have the ECU actuate the top during this test, only manually with all power off.

I was not clear, sorry. I will try again;
1. Turn vehicle OFF. You can remove battery terminal if you wish, but not mandatory.
2. Remove connector A (top connector of the three) from T019 (Convt Top ECU)
3. Insert meter lead in pin X where X is a microswitch sensor pin. They are pins numbered [ 4, 14, 2, 1, 15, 8, 9, 17, 18, 16, 3 ]. I count 11 pins for the 12 sensors*.
4. Put other meter lead on a known good ground point, clip it there if you have that ability.
5. Put meter in continuity-beep mode. Or use ohm mode, the reading ere will go from infinity to near zero, like maybe 5ohms. You would report this as infinity = OFF, <10ohms = ON.

*Please note that sensor EVVD-L and EVVA-R are in a series circuit on pin 4. So if one fails, we wont know which one from this test. Dont worry about this yet, just an FYI.

 

Because of I = E / R (I=current, E=voltage, R=resistance) where R=resistance of hydraulic pump , E=voltage at motor, and I is the current doing the work. So the lower the Voltage (E), the lower the Current (I) that is actually doing the work.

Question: What is your hydraulic pump resistance? (which we need to measure, can be measured from Pin 87 of N011 relay socket to Ground pin 85 or known good ground [with relay removed], should be around 0.5 to 5ohms)

Answer: Yes the DC Hydraulic pump is sensitive to a voltage drop. Could your battery be the issue, sure, why not. Is that an easy test? Yes, just test with the car running which you have already done. Could the battery cause issues with the car running? Yes but only if the battery was loading the system or very weak. Your battery apparently has the strength (current) to drive your starter motor for short durations which is a good indicator of its strength. If you want to replace your battery, fine with me. It might give you that extra 5% needed to get your top up, if its that type of issue.

Notice your Hydraulic pump voltages do not drop below 13.5 volts with the engine running, this is quite good.

 

Yes I am reasonably sure, its 87, but I think you have your 87 and 30 backwards somehow based on your previous test results. This might not be your fault, it could be labeled in a confusing way, or maybe even manufactured backwards. 87 and 30 are basically reversible in this circuit. So maybe test both 30 to Ground and 87 to Ground. Pin 85 was supposed to be an easy Ground.

85 to Ground being 1 ohm is about right. The wire and connectors have resistance.

 

Page 1136 of [Workshop Manual 360 Spider Vol 1 and 2.pdf] states the hydraulic pump current should be 12A at 12V, so R = I / E or 12/12 = 1ohm. You measure about 1 ohm, so this sounds fine. I suppose its on to the sensors...

BTW Page 1135 shows pin 30 of the relay going to the Hyd Motor, where the workshop manual shows that its 87 (post #21 illustration). Its a conflict.

 

I agree the sensors seem less likely, maybe very unlikely but we are running out of stuff to investigate and the least likely items sometimes are the culprit. As far as the passenger side ram, there are several aspects to consider;
1. The ram could have an internal leak, its a push / pull or bidirectional hydraulic ram, with a piston in the middle that has an internal seal to keep the fluid in the correct chamber. I have read that this system is self priming, thus changing the ram should be easier by that factor. If they are the same part a ram could be swapped from Right to Left. They look the same in the docs, but have different part numbers. If you can find one off of a wreck (recycler) then get it on the way for a test.

2. It could be one or more joint connected to the ram system. It could be binding or failing. I know you said you took white lithium to the assembly.

3. The solenoid for the passenger ram could be bad. We checked it electrically, seems fine, but it could still be physically bad. Maybe while you are searching for the recycled Ram you could also ask for one of the solenoids.

4. ECU; the ECU might not be firing the solenoid for the passenger ram, we have not actually checked this yet. We just checked the solenoid itself electrically (ohm load of the motor). To check that it is being fired;
a. Put your volt meter on the two pins while they are connected using the separate pieces of wire method, you should see 10-14volts across the solenoid when it fires.
Why would the ECU choose not to fire one of two solenoids? It might be defective as a unit. The PCB in the ECU has separate transistors for each solenoid. One could have failed. Test (a.) above will test for this.

5. The clamshell might be stuck, or the mechanism bound (bent, etc).

All this is very interesting, but one BIG issue I have and I would like your opinion; Why does the top go down but not up? For the top to go down the passenger side of the clamshell has to motor open, using the Ram, Solenoid, Transistor in the ECU, Joints, etc. UP is the opposite of Down, right?

 

I had a very similar issue wiht a 2002 360 spider. the top would open with no issues but the lid would not go down. I would cycle the roof to the open position and it would close the roof and the windows would roll up etc. Then open and sometimes it would work and sometimes it would not. I

We were meeting for a run and I pulled up amd everyone was standing around and I went to open my roof and the lid opened; the roof folded but the lid would not close, a buddy put his hand on the roof and the lid closed . . . . . hmm lets try that again . . . open, fold and the lid would not close, placed his hand on the roof to push it down a little and the lid closed . . . hmmm

took it the mechanic and within 2 minutes and a screewdriver . . . he tightend a sensor and it has been 18 moinths or so and no issues.

maybe one of the sensors. just a thought

 

We are going to test two hydraulic solenoids; L016 and L020. I would like you to remove the electrical connector from these solenoids and insert thin wires where you can test the voltage across the solenoid so we know the ECU has activated it. Then I would like to know when they are ON vs OFF.

Test Setup: I am interested in the values for L016 and L020 when the rear cover is supposed to raise (when broken) and when it does raise (working).

Sample Test Result:
Broken...: L016=ON : L020=OFF
Working..: L016=OFF : L020=ON

Background;
Relay Info:
L020 aka (1) aka MN is the pressure release solenoid. When it is ON pressure from the pump will build to 200 bar. When it is OFF the pump will just recirculate fluid back to the reservoir. This solenoid should be hot, that means it is making the pump create pressure.

L016 aka (3) aka MDZ is a three way hydraulic valve that without voltage will vent pressure through the yellow pipe. If ON (energized) and L020 is ON it will stop the ram wherever it is because the pressure will be equalized on both sides.

I am not sure why L015 = MVVZ aka (2) should be warmer than L016.
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*Note; The hydraulic schematics might not be accurate and/or my interpretations might be flawed. There is a chance the ON/OFF Logic for L016 is inverted in the schematic, or the piston has a direction changing pivot. I used the FluidSIM to investigate the system.

L016 at 0V (OFF) and the system at 200 bar L020 (ON), the rear cover should close.
L016 at 12V (ON) and the system at 200 bar L020 (ON), the rear cover should open.
L016 at 0V (OFF) and the system at 0 bar L020 (OFF), the rear cover should fall with gravity
L016 at 12V (ON) and the system at 0 bar L020 (OFF), the rear cover should not close, but could be easily lifted up.

An inverted L016 logic would make more sense, because the lid would be held down. Lets assume these are inverted.

Yes there is a thermister in the Hydraulic Motor, mentioned before and indicated in schematics in this thread. Look at the image with all Solenoids and ECU titled FE0414. The thermister values can be accessed from T019-A Pins 10 and 23. Ohm across these leads. The ohm to temp conversion chart is in the user manual page 1137. At 80degF I suspect 2M Ohms (motor at ambient). While in use I would not be surprised to see it at 220degF or 100K Ohms. The manual does not specify the max temp, but if the base resistance on a cold motor is above 1M Ohms the sensor is probably fine.

The real question is when you are lowering the top successfully, and the rear cover opens as you would expect, what are the logic values of L016 (and maybe verify L020 is always ON)
Then try and raise the top, the values for L016 should be the same for the same expected behavior.
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