99999

Very clever.

 

There is no doubt that Ferrari has played with chassis numbers in the past and for the record I'm personally not affected by the value of this car, but it's just beyond me that it would be enough simply to just claim that there are several identical cars to make it true.

What exactly did M.M. see ? What material proof was gathered ? Should he have seen two cars with the same VIN number at the same moment, which remains to be documented, it could very well have been a 99999 plate applied above the steering wheel of a prototype... a 99999 vin plate was placed above the steering wheel of the mock F50 in the Galleria when the original Galleria car, ie 99999 was delivered to Jacques Swaters in 1998. The plate was later removed, specifically to avoid any confusion regarding the actual 99999.

Just to clarify my sources : I happen to have handled the sale of 99999 from Mr Swaters to the US customer. I have thoroughly inspected this car and drove it myself around the territory of Garage Francorchamps. I carried out due diligence, found out that there was a 99999 vin plate on the Galleria car, asked Mrs F. Swaters to contact the factory and to enquire about how this was possible, and they promptly removed the plate.
I obtained a Modis printout - for those not familiar with Modis, it is the Ferrari factory database with all cars produced, the engine number, gearbox number, assembly number, first owner, date and place of delivery etc.). Any Ferrari dealer at any time can print out the Modis result for 99999 and he will obtain THIS CAR's details, ownership, date of delivery etc.

There is obviously only one result for 99999 on Modis, not two or three. This means that if there is another 99999, then it is not registered in the factory database, has no build and delivery date, has no known first owner, no known engine and gearbox numbers, no registered assembly number, no place of delivery, no current known owner, no certificate of conformity (mandatory in Europe for any road legal car) and can certainly not be registered for road use, and last but not least, it would be impossible to sell.

Such a car would be a very peculiar F50.
Perhaps there is such a secret car hidden somewhere in the factory ? But there is no proof at all of its purported existence. Therefore until shown undisputable evidence, I believe that there is no other car with the same chassis number and that the rest is nothing but rumours. Off to bed now,good night to all.

 

Ahhh... So now it comes out. You have a friend who owns one of the 99999 cars; or you're broker, or you facilitated the deal, or... You have skin in the game that is contrary to or goes beyond the truth that is sought here. Thus spake your attitude.

 

Wrong again. I am a curator, not a broker. More public speculation from you is not surprising.

The truth is the truth.

 

Thank you Victor.

 

Curator, broker, friend of the owner - it doesn't matter. Yours is a personal agenda, needing the car to be a single iteration to serve some purpose.

This entire thread is speculation, with nothing more substantial than conjecture provided by anyone - including you.

 

Just as an aside, most dealers' access to MODIS has been restricted to those cars only delivered through those dealers. Only a select few dealers can see cars outside of what they've delivered; perhaps Hasler is one of those dealers. Also, MODIS (at least in the U.S.) only shows VIN, assembly number, window punching and, when it's working, body number; engine and gearbox numbers are not included.

But again, this thread directly or indirectly calls the factory into question, so using the factory's records as proof contrary to the claim made here is akin to an accused's investigation being the only inquiry considered as to whether or not an impropriety was committed.

 

Erik, I missed your post, but it is very well-stated.

 

I think your dismissive tone and thinly-veiled agenda only serve to further cast doubt upon the singular existence of an F50 99999.

In fact, if I were you, if indeed you have "all the factory documentation necessary", I would implore the new owner to post the aforementioned claimed documentation publicly post haste. That is if he cares to establish its status as you claim.

If he doesn't care to post it to clear the car's provenance up, then why do you care if many doubt the singular existence of an F50 99999?

Remember, doubts about the existence of just one F50 99999 existed long before this thread commenced.

Lastly, if you expect anyone to take anything you say to have any basis-in-fact, please answer the question that has been posed to you about Marcel Massini, for the third time..

 

Thanks Joe.

Sorry we never crossed paths in Monterey this year. Maybe another time.

>8^)
ER

 

This does not mean another does not exist. That would not be the first (nor last) time that Ferrari has caused such a situation.

The fact also remains that Ferrari has seen fit in the past to change chassis numbers on a car. This is something which should be considered.

Anyone reading this is happy to review documentation and learn accordingly.

 

Another comment I missed:

I agree with this notion. But only if the muddied waters of its provenance are cleared up. Exactly the reason it only brought what it did at auction - the confusion over its true history.

Having said all that, the current owner must be very happy, because given this proposed notion, he bought it for a song!

 

No agenda here. I've realized this clique is a big waste of time so I will bow out now. The car is what the car is and the owner knows what he has. No matter what evidence is presented, there will be some sort of contrary argument. Convincing the car salesman and the "performance enthusiast" is pointless and adds no value whatsoever. You guys have too much invested in "being right", even if your not.

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336541

 

I suppose we'd feel better if we knew we weren't having this discussion with a kid. Maybe you should fill out your profile.

For whom are you curating? I assume it's the ex-Dave Walters car, for sale through Richard Purcell, 24 February 2010, right here in Los Angeles. So let me ask you a question...

Despite having the tag removed, 99999 has been spotted at the Galleria numerous times, including September, 2008. But on 24 December 2008, Jason Thorgalsen posted that he spotted 99999 on Hawaiian plates (Walters kept part of his collection in HI). But then 99999 was spotted at the Galleria again in May, 2009. But then I saw 99999 at Walters' Burbank location, 23 September 2009, about a month before he passed away.

So what's the story? Was Walters periodically sending this car to Italy to be displayed in the Galleria, in between keeping it in Princeville, Kauai, and Burbank?

Yeah, that must be it; that must be how it went down. Sorry I got all confused.

 

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Considering your 23 posts on FerrariChat you have a lot of nerve coming in here with the tone you have. As far as Clique, I know all three (3) Gentleman that have responded, and you sir are no gentleman.

 

Ok, if like Carbon says, the factory has replaced a 99999 plate on top of the steering wheel of the Galleria car, I suggest next time someone goes to the factory he asks about the car's real chassis number (if there even is one, as we were told by the factory that it's some sort of a mock car), and asks to see the number on the chassis, the VIN plates and the assembly number. That then will take care of the Galleria car.
Of course, anything is possible, but if someone in this forum comes up today with an assertion that there are twenty "99999"s, and 160 original 250 GTO's, no one can prove otherwise since the factory is not a reliable source. But the assertion in itself will lack any credibility if no proof is shown of the existence of any such cars. Yet we are still waiting, in vain it seems, for anyone to come up with anything verifiable.

 

See post 8 in this thread and note photo of vin#.

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=140794491#post140794491

It is pure fact that there are Ferrari Prototypes with the same vin #.

10523 is an example.

The F 50 in the thread I cited certainly looks to be an F 50 Prototype and the photo of it's vin # is clearly:

ZFFTA000099999

 

I would say that clears everything up. Unless sylvian is curating for an F50 that was in NY yesterday, and brought to the track by Classic Coach, this is irrefutable.

 

Victor: I know you mean well. But. You sold this car representing it as a one-and-only, did you not? Your position therefore is completely understandable.

 

For the record the VIN# of the 5 speed F50 Prototype brought to the FCA meet at Watkins Glen last weekend.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Plate appears similar to that on the car Sylvain was looking after ...
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

The word "substitute" conjures up endless possibilities.

 

Shhhhh.... Don't bring facts into the argument.

 

At last and for the first time since this thread started, someone came up with an interesting item, a picture of a chassis number of a purported other 99999.
But let's not get carried away and scrutinize the find.

Indeed this item alone is a long way from what I would consider undisputable proof of the existence of another genuine factory stamped 99999.
What I see on the link is a kind of sticker, or perhaps an aluminum plate, like one I could have engraved at my local Mister Minit store. I have never seen such a plate on an F50 and I can't see where this one is positionned (or rather glued, I should say) , but clearly not in the usual spot on the carbon chassis, neither above the steering wheel. Then it contains the following seemingly cryptic text " SUBSTITUTE FOR US VIN ZFFTA46B000099999 see part N° 565". Don't know what that means, but the word substitute alone is not reassuring, neither does it look like anything applied by Ferrari Spa and seems therefore rather unconvincing and confusing. But perhaps it's a US thing and one of you has an explanation ?

I have seen classic Ferraris with restamped chassis and engine numbers, but usually they come with "sorry no paperwork, the history was lost" comments, and so in this case I'd find it appropriate to see a proper vin number affixed to the carbon chassis together with some factory paperwork, or at least official paperwork, like a factory certificate of origin. All of this and more is present with the official 99999, so I find it only normal that it should be the case with any new "candidate".