99999

Now on the Swaters car (er, one of the Swaters cars?).

 

Excellent, Joe, genuinely excellent humour )
Seriously, the truth is the truth at a given moment in time. If the new truth is that there are several 99999's, then so be it ! But first...proof is of the essence !

 

What part of that is a US EPA/DOT VIN certification Plaque are you unable to understand and that that Plaque has been photographed on BOTH the ex JS F50 and the F50 Prototype that was at Watkins Glen last Sunday, the F50 Prototype with the 5 not 6 speed, affixed in slightly different positions and that both of these two different cars also have cats????

Any part of the above that isn't pure fact?

Anyone???

 

NNO my friend your use of the word "debacle" is interesting and I fear may also be apt.

Let's cut to the chase. Am I correct? Are there two Prototype F50's in the US that, as evidenced by these two plaques, appear to be federalized under the same VIN #????????????

As an aside is one a 5 speed and one a 6 speed?

Best

 

West coast Swaters car was auctioned a while back, and so out there somewhere.

 

Victor: the band was still playing whilst the Titanic was sinking. Human nature..

 

Jim: this morning I used the invented expression "bureaucratic jackassishness" in the Countach thread purely in jest.

Now I'm becoming concerned that it might be an applicable expression....

 

LOL.

Truly!

 

This is a very interesting thread. I love the collective brain power of this group, and I pay particular compliments to NNO for having the patience to walk us through this. Others are not so patient and have an imperious attitude that they alone are right, no questions asked.

Over 20 years ago, a guy said to me, "follow the money if you want to know why the wheels are turning."

NNO and Joe have identified the proverbial "rub" by exposing the "curator's" financial self-interest. (Or if not self-interest, at least there is a conflict of interest.)

Until that is resolved and until the question regarding Marcel Massani is answered, I'll stick with my buddies who have thousands of posts here.

Interesting.

 

Well no, fact it is not. It is a claim. The picture itself does not give any proof for the claim that this plaque can be found on two separate cars.

More generally speaking: don´t get me wrong, I have no reason to doubt any claims regarding this subject, but I think Sylvain and Pescatore are correct when they state that till this day there has not been given any genuine evidence to support the claims of multiple F50´s with the same administrative identity. That they could have a personal interest in one particular F50 being the one and only 99999 does not disqualify their statements. In the contrary I would say.

I think the only way is to be physically presented with two or more F50´s which can be examined on the spot, most preferably video taped (photo´s are easier to manipulate).

 

Blimey, looks like there's some water starting to pour in the hull indeed. If you guys find the sticker is good, then that point is cleared. And at the same time we also learn that two cars can be registered with the exact same VIN number in the US.

We might almost be there, BUT, let the band sing till the end.
Next question : is it the original number of the 5 speed car, or could it have been alloted to the car upon arrival in the US - or at any other point after it was produced - for any reason, and there could be many ? Any chance of getting hold of a picture of the actual chassis number, if there is one ? A couple of years ago I imported a Porsche from the US into Europe. The car had US chassis stickers/plaques and US registration documents which did not match the factory stamped number. The belgian administration issued new paperwork according to the factory stamped number and the US VIN stickers had to be removed. In other words the US DOT/EPA issued VIN number was not the factory number. Could this be a similar story ? I think it still has to be dug into further, a mere photo of a plaque is not just quite enough to prove that the car is "another" genuine 99999.

Other point : I'd be curious to see the result of an attempt to obtain a Classiche certificate on this 5 speed car.

 

GTE, I confirm no personal interest, I sold the car 4 years ago, it has changed owners at least 3 times since, one is deceased. Besides this car is the only official and "factory approved 99999", any other car will not get this approval and any owner of alternative ones will now have a hard time proving a potential buyer that his car is real or even legal, not the least because of this thread. It even crossed my mind that someone involved in an "alternative 99999" might be interested in promoting the idea that there are several such cars.

 

Keep fiddling while your ship sinks.

That plaque was put on the Classic Coach 5 speed car by the SAME US Federalizer who put the same plaque on the car that you sold. Are you accusing him of committing criminal fraud by submitting a phony vin # to the US Federal Government? You accusing Classic Coach of committing US Customs Fraud when they imported their 99999?

You sell your car as the only 99999?

As for which prototype is more interesting the 5 speed one is a lot more interesting and unique.

The smart money realized that and that's why the other Prototype, the one you previously sold, sold for relatively little compared to other F50's at the RM auction.

 

One photo was taken by Jason when the JS car was in Hawaii and it is public record that the JS car was Federalized by GK.

The other photo was taken of the Classic Coach 99999 as per Andrew which was also Federalized by GK.

The position of the plaques clearly show that they are mounted in different places and on different cars.

The Classic Coach 99999 has been public record and openly exhibited at Ferrari Events for years and the smart money was fully aware of it and bid accordingly at the RM Auction on the JS 99999.

The Smart money was also aware of the legal case against JS and the allegations of fraud/Vin # switching he has been accused of in the case of the 375MM and may have taken that into account as well.

 

Did I strike some sensitive chord ?
Firstly those are your own thoughts and extrapolations, I've never accused anyone.
Should you find that investigating the 5 speed car is not acceptable, I would be tempted to think that you are involved in that car in some way.

I didn't need to sell 99999 as the only one, because there was no-one questionning its uniqueness. Check the period presentation page : http://www.belgoexports.com/_EN/&03_fiche-sold.php?id_car=179

Lastly the analysis about the value is flawed in my opinion. The reasons why 99999 sold for a lower price are :

1° It did not come with complete US papers/title (both RM and the period owner contacted me at the time to get more info). The absence of the US title was even mentionned in RM's catalog, and this was certainly the major issue for US buyers so they can't be blamed for shying away.

2° Perhaps because of MS's article that let believe that there are plenty of 99999's around, which could have cast doubts in people's minds. Once the car will be for sale with complete US registration/title, we shall see what will happen with its value. The "Smart Money" was fully aware of the 5 speed 99999 ? How come it was only mentionned yesterday on this forum, which, I think, is a very large number of Ferrari-savvy people ?

As for the interest of the 5 speed car, it certainly is more unique mechanically speaking, no question. As to history and ownership, on the other hand, I'd be very surprised if the previous/current owner(s) are more relevant in Ferrari terms than Jacques Swaters was.

 

Your temptations are showing a reckless disregard for the truth.

In light of the serious allegations of VIN# fraud that have been made against JS in the case of the stolen 375MM he "owned" I can understand why some would have no interest in owning any car he was involved with nor ever will.

 

I have his email.....

 

Interesting and True.

Once again the truth comes out and people are able to Judge posters who failed to fully disclose their current or prior financial involvement in this particular car while championing it and cross them off the list of people they would ever do business with should they so desire.

 

Are you certain the Swaters car and the Classic Coach car aren't the same car?

 

Look at the photos and decide for yourself.

I find Victor's web site amusing.

"The First F50 built"

In light of Andrew's report that the Classic Coach F50 has a 5 speed not 6 speed and as it's photo's are much more prototype looking I doubt that's true. The JS car may be the first customer F50 but IMO it's not the first F50 Built. (prototype)

"Unique Vin#"

The two plaque photos of US EPA/DOT Federalization vin# 99999 are definitely affixed in different places and have the exact same Vin #.

 

Abandon ship, man life-vests.

Victor, you are the quintessential eternal optimist, and as NNO has pointed out, it is refreshing to see.

But, go right back to the very beginning, the man himself JS. What chassis number would you like ??

I think the real issue is that we are dealing with something that's bigger than any of the factors at play here: an auto manufacturer. And as we know, we have seen many documented cases of "2 built, 3 remaining" where our beloved cars from Italy are concerned.

Something to bear in mind when dealing with Italian cars is what the great TC Browne reminds us about chassis numbers: "There are lies, damned lies, and then there are car manufacturer's statistics".

Have an open mind.

 

The point and nothing but the point.

Many years ago I quoted a member of JS's racing team in the 0846 papers who freely admitted that JS and Ferrari swapped chassis numbers and plates whenever it suited them.

For Carnet reasons, to enable customers to avoid customs duties, to " scrap" chassis to
avoid Italian taxes.

In the case of the stolen 375 MM JS is charged with swapping VIN numbers to keep that car from it's rightful owner.

As MS clearly pointed out in his article, Marcel Massini confirmed and the Photographs of the Classic Coach 99999 clearly show there are at least two F50's in the US with the same 99999 chassis number.

 

WAIT A MINUTE!

The suggestion that someone would counterfeit the aluminium plates found on the cars is silly.

AND

If my memory serves me correctly, Enzo Ferrari died on 8/14/1988. (My dad's birthday.)

A statement from the ad linked above reads: "The unique VIN (the chassis number, not the car!) had been promised to the owner - a close friend of the Commendatore - by Enzo Ferrari himself back in the eighties."

In 1988, Ferrari had just introduced the F-40 and it was very early in the production run. The F-50 was nowhere in sight, and was not delivered until much later--a child born on the day Enzo died would be in the second grade before the F-50 was delivered.

Are we to believe that Enzo promised this unique VIN to someone almost a decade earlier than it could have been envisioned? If so, why not promise someone the unique chassis number 000000 to some worthy friend? Or better still: 000007, I am sure Sean Connery or Roger Moore would line up for that one. (Oh wait, Enzo Ferrari, in his vision, promised that one to Daniel Craig, who in 1988 had not yet made his debut! Wait, maybe he promised it to Tom Selleck--no, wait, Selleck turned down the part of Indiana Jones. Um, this is getting a little far afield.)

The question about M. Massani is still unanswered. Is Mr. Massani a liar?

The F-50 is a wonderful car. I once owned one. The VIN number was never relevant to me.