99999

Why not? chances were that at some point a Ferrari carying s/n 99999 would leave factorygrounds. That was easy foreseeable in the late 80's.

 

How is that silly? This thread alone proves there is something about those darn VIN's that keeps some people fascinated all the way to the bank.

 

Curious if you knew.

The shot of the Classic Coach car is pretty tight - tough to tell if it's in a different spot.

The Jason pic of the Swaters car was taken at Supercar Sunday in the LA area, for those keeping track.

Figure a call to Classic Coach and/or GK might sort out differences/similarities, if limit the entertainment value some.

 

It is silly because you are suggesting that someone is able: (1) to obtain the blank plate; (2) to stamp it in a manner consistent with the factory stamp, (3) to find a F-50 WITHOUT AN EXISTING PLATE, (4) to put the plate on that car, and (5) then have federal authorities verify the truth and accuracy of the fraud.

WHAT YOU ARE MISSING IN THIS IS OBVIOUS: this plate is on an F-50. It is not on a Miata. In order for it to be on this car--of which there are less than 400 in the world--one would have to remove a legitimate plate from an existing car.

What is the point? You have an F-50 and you want to defraud people by changing the serial number in the hope that someone will put a six figure premium on the serial number. Then, the person making this high-line purchase will be naive enough to buy the car off the lot without a full history, a check of chassis numbers and other matching authentication measures.

It is silly.

Of course, it is not silly if that F-50 is really a Fiero that has been fitted with an F-50 "kit." Then, of course, it would be 4-speed F-50, not a 5-speed.

And, as I said before, why shouldn't Enzo have reserved 000000, also. That is a unique number. Come to think of it, 000001 is unique, as is 000002, and, well you get the picture.

 

Still waiting on the M. Massani opinion.

 

Are you talking about the first, second, third etc. etc. Ferrari? You understand things were very different for Ferrari back in 1947? Still the big task ahead of creating a name for itself.

 

Very valid points, but I still haven't seen any undisputable evidence of the claim that there are two seperate F50's both carrying the same VIN.

But if there are, than I assume the factory messed up and if so, are there any other means to determine which of the two left the productionline ahead of the other?

 

Great post.

 

Those are not North American car VIN plates, but rather the type used for importation of Euro Cars??

The importer has to reproduce the VIN from the Euro paperwork and put it SOMEWHERE on the car.

They have placed it close to where the standard Bar Code Plate of a production car VIN would be. Understandable on a protoype chassis.

You have confused me with the 5 speed vs. 6 speed though. Not hard to do lately.
Interesting saga....

 

Marcel has gone walkabout..has he posted anywhere here recently?

 

An old joke goes like this . . . He who laughs last didn't get the joke at first.

The first Ferraris, as best I can tell, had serial numbers 001C, 002C. As the cars grew in number, Ferrari recognized these cars by 4 digits. For example, a 1948 166 MM Berlinetta carried the serial number 0026.

Somewhere in the mid 1960s five numbers appears. One of the 1969 365 GTB/4 Daytona Spyders carried a serial number of 14365.

The subject matter of this thread is that when 5 serial numbers appeared, sometime, presumably in the mid 1980s, ole Enzo foresaw a serial number of 99999. Five nines. This apparently was some magical number to "curators."

Enzo, if the stories are to be believed, promised this number to a friend of his--according to the post I referenced earlier. Enzo apparently promised this number to his friend at least 7 years, and probably much longer, before the number or car was produced. According to the post, he promised this number to a friend, even though he had no clue whether the car would ever be produced, and apparently enough people inside Ferrari knew about it that they carried out this promise a full 7 years or more after his death. (Curious that no written records of this promise are documented.)

So, my comment is this . . . if five nines (99999) is special, wouldn't six zeros be special?

If Enzo is going to promise 99999 to a friend of his, why not promise 000000 (that is six zeros for those paying attention) to a friend?

The rest of my post was jest--which was probably lost on some readers. My jest of 000007 was a reference to James Bond, the last 3 numbers being 007. Sean Connery and Roger Moore were famous for that role in the late 80s, which is why I used their names. The reference to Daniel Craig, the current James Bond, was intended to be even more of a farce than this post is becoming. (And it is becoming a farce real fast.)

Frankly, having to explain all of this to you is getting pretty tiring. So let me give you some useful advice.

If you take the displacement of a car's engine (in most early Ferraris) and divide by the number of cylinders, you will find that number on the rear of the car. The 250 GTO, for example, was a 3 liter car. Get it? 250 CC times 12 equals 3 liters.

Is any of this making sense?

If I recall correctly, Michael Jordan was given 023/484 of the 550 Barchettas, so the Moore/Connery attempt at humor has some basis. (Michael Jordan, the greatest basketball player ever, wore the number 23.)

Oh, and the reference to Tom Selleck should be self-evident for any self-respecting Ferrari lover.

Now, I say this with all due respect--and with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek . . . Please try to keep up.

 

01C
02C
002
were the first three Ferrari serial numbers.

Victor B owned.

Good work.

 

Classic Coach 99999 has a 5sp.

JS 99999 has a 6sp.

IMO The 5sp. was a mule and came first.

Both are Euro cars which were converted thus 99999 Placques.

 

Thanks, Napolis.

Sorry my historical account of the first Ferraris was a digit off. Otherwise, we may have beaten this topic to a pulp.

I am still waiting for some to comment on Mr. Massani. It seems that his opinion is a lot more accurate than Enzo promising someone car 99999 almost a decade before its time.

Notice how the poster didn't ask for proof of Enzo's promise on that one.

PS Love the facebook site on the P 4/5 C.

 

I agree.

It's time for the Skinny Lady to sing Victor's Song...


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmbw8OycJrE[/ame]

 

There is at least one at least one (if not more) F50 mule that predates 99999, and that car has a 6 speed gearbox. My question is this: why would a mule be fitted with all of the road going equipment and a 5 speed gearbox? To me this makes no sense at all. Especially when you look at the photos of 99999, there appears to be no visual difference between its gearbox casing and that of a standard road going F50. Why would they fit the gear box casing from a regular F50, but only 5 gears? I don't want any of that to sound argumentative, I'm just wondering if this car truly has a 5 speed, and why.

 

Youre not making sense. 000000 is not a genuine Ferrari VIN number. Now, how about 100001?

And besides, why is it so hard to believe that Enzo made a special promise to a very special friend and NOT make a habit out of it by making the same type of promiss to other friends?

I think this type of argumentation to prove that there are more than one F50's carrying the 99999 number is way off. There are better arguments to be made.

 

It was reported in the thread about one of the 99999's seen at the Watkins Glen FCA meet having a 5 sp. box. Personally I don't know that it does but it was reported that it does. As cars are developed a lot of things are tried and it's certainly possible that Ferrari used a 5 sp. box in an F50 Prototype for some reason. Ferrari often used surplus/modified parts in their prototypes. Modified 593 muled inboard to outboard brake gearboxes to develop 603 gearboxes for example in the P 3/4 to The P4.

 

Dave and I feel it's not credible in light of the fact that Enzo died many years before at least two F50's with the same chassis number 99999 as per Dave's excellent posts on this issue were produced and sold by Ferrari. As an aside the owner of Classic Coach also owns an authorized Ferrari Dealership. I wonder if Enzo also promised FT a 99999 years before he died as well


Victor's website categorically stated that it's true. I challenge him to post verifiable written proof that it is.

 

I know the telaio boys could shine a VERY BRIGHT light on this matter.

 

Joe, I am well aware of what you say and agree entirely. I'm just skeptical when people state unproven rumours as truths. Some progress has been made with this 5 speed car, but I think we should have all the elements of that car's history, not just a pic of a plaque.
As I said in a previous post about the Porsche I imported, US vin numbers can be widely different from original factory numbers - WITHOUT implying that there is any wrongdoing, Jim. Just an investigative approach, nothing to get upset about.

 

Still waiting for an answer to Dave's excellent post about your website's statement on Enzo's promising JS F50 99999 many years before F50's existed. Any paperwork proving that statement? As Dave pointed out:

"Originally Posted by Drive550PFB
WAIT A MINUTE!

The suggestion that someone would counterfeit the aluminium plates found on the cars is silly.

AND

If my memory serves me correctly, Enzo Ferrari died on 8/14/1988. (My dad's birthday.)

A statement from the ad linked above reads: "The unique VIN (the chassis number, not the car!) had been promised to the owner - a close friend of the Commendatore - by Enzo Ferrari himself back in the eighties."

In 1988, Ferrari had just introduced the F-40 and it was very early in the production run. The F-50 was nowhere in sight, and was not delivered until much later--a child born on the day Enzo died would be in the second grade before the F-50 was delivered.

Are we to believe that Enzo promised this unique VIN to someone almost a decade earlier than it could have been envisioned?"

As an aside a while back were you offering a "Scuderia Ferrari" Alfa 8C that O and several of us discussed on FCHAT? The one that was built, if photographic evidence is to be believed on an Alfa left not right hand drive 6C road car chassis or was that someone else?

Just an investigative approach Victor, nothing to get upset about.

 

Ugggh! I want to rap my knuckles on your head and shout "McFly, McFly!" (Mods not a threat of violence, but rather a reference to someone to doesn't get it.)

When we talk about Ferrari VIN numbers, we always shorten them. In post #93 on this thread, there is a photo of a VIN Number. The actual number is ZFFTA46B000099999, with the last 6 numbers stamped in boldface type. This board has abbreviated this VIN number to be 99999.

Many of your arguments on this thread are based on hypotheticals or presumed facts--you have presumed counterfeit VIN plates; you have presumed Mr. Massani is a liar, you have presumed that people have not seen what they claim to have seen, you have assumed that reputable people on this site are not telling the truth.

So, I choose to engage in a hypothetical or a presumption with you--why couldn't Enzo have promised a different VIN number to someone else, I asked. Instead of answering that, you go and tell me that 000000 is not a legitimate VIN number. I am trying to make chicken salad, and you are giving me tuna.

So, let's engage in a hypothetical . . . according to you (and the ad I referenced earlier that is linked) Enzo promised 99999 to a special client. He presumably did this almost a decade before that VIN existed. OK, fair enough. But are we to believe that in 40 years of making wonderful cars, Enzo did this ONLY ONCE? And he did it for a VIN number that wouldn't exist until years after his death? Come on!

But, let's go with it. Let's engage in some dreaming. So, borrowing from the actual VIN number above (and using a hypothetical) is it beyond belief to assume that Enzo would have promised VIN ZFFTA46B000100007, to, say, Sean Connery? This VIN number ends in 007. Pretty Cool, if you have played James Bond in a number of movies.

If you want a more believable example, could he have promised (again borrowing from Post #93) VIN ZFFTA46B000100012, to Nikki Lauda? (Why would he do this, you ask? I think that #12 was the car number Nikki Lauda was driving when he won the WDC in 1975 ending over a decade of frustration of Ferrari in the WDC--could be wrong. But for this example, let's assume Nikki was in Car #12.) Is this too remote for you?

I also asked you how this promise was enforced. Apparently no records exist at Ferrari, and this promise was granted about a decade after it was made and 7 years after Enzo's death. How improbable is that?

So, in over 40 years of making great cars, Enzo made a promise of a VIN number only once. In over 40 years, he never promised a family member a VIN number, never promised a worker, who had been with him 30 years a VIN number. Never promised a cherished driver a VIN number. We have only this one instance--and we have no way of proving it?

Pretty thin, for a guy who keeps harping on proof. You want an unedited movie of two cars sitting side-by-side with 99999 on the VIN plate. It matters not that one car was on the East Coast with 99999 and one car was on the west coast with 99999 within 24 hours of each other--and no connection to try to show it was the same car--and you want more proof?

Just be consistent. And, is Mr. Massani really a liar about this issue? (this has been asked a dozen times, and remains unanswered.)

 

To be entirely accurate back in 2006 I could have written in the presentation that it is the first “customer” F50 built, as I did not take the pre-production prototypes into consideration. Hope I won’t be flogged for that...and glad you're amused.

The chassis number anecdote was mentionned to me by Mrs Swaters, JS’s daughter who at the time was managing his collection. JS being a close friend of Enzo Ferrari, a major actor in the history of Ferrari, a famous racing driver, a legendary and successful Ferrari team manager, and the owner of the first and longest standing Ferrari dealership in the world outside of Italy, I had no reason to doubt it, nor to conceal it as it is an interesting story. There may be no written proof, but if you’re doubtful, contact Mrs Swaters and ask her all about it…

 

Er, nope I don't recall having ever offered a "Scuderia Ferrari" Alfa 8C.