How good is Sebastien Vettel? **Spoilers**

Console yourself. You're wrong.
I can find no head to head match ups with Moss, Clark, Fangio, Nuvolari, etc. etc.

 

Gee...you poor old senile fella....you're contradicting yourself now! You should have slept in.

 

S. L. O. W. L. Y

You can't compare across eras.

Got it?

 

I'm not.

Go back to my original post and you'll see that you've got your wires crossed......


again!

 

My wires are fine. I'm saying the same thing all along.
For some reason you alone are unable understand most of what I post.

 

I didn't include Schumey in the equation originally because I don't feel he is the driver he once was. After a multi-year sabbatical, and now in his 40s, how could he be? Nowadays, Seb, Alonso, and Hamilton are the top tier drivers, with Button as a possible addition. I would put the current Schumey in the 2nd tier, along with Webber, Rosberg, etc.

Personally, I think if Lewis and Seb were driving the same cars, I think Lewis would be finishing ahead of Seb more often than the other way around. Against Alonso, I think it would be pretty even. Against Button, I think Seb would be the dominant one.

 

Yep...you've got that backwards

 

Now you're beginning to bore me.

 

I hear you, and basically agree (!) There's no legitimate way we can compare, eg, Michael and Jimmy.

OTOH, we can ignore the "flashes in the pan" - Which is generally a jockey with but a single WDC - Your "long time" comparison criteria.

This reduces the contenders to multiple championship winners only and the list gets a lot shorter. With those we can compare # of poles, fastest laps, points scored per race and so on - The acknowledged difficulty here is it wasn't as competitive in "the old days" and just finishing was hard - Jimmy typically won or broke down for example.

So, no, it's not really possible to compare across eras But it makes for a fun debate most of the time.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

Sebastien is definitely one of the top 3 along with Hamilton and Alonso.

Alonso is #1 and is peaking. His core strengths: mental strength, car set up, race pace. He is good at overtaking but not the best. He will soon be depending on his race craft and experience to counter the slight decline in speed (due to age - he will be on the wrong side of 30) in the next few years.

Hamilton is probably #2. He is supreme in overtaking and has a lot of raw speed. His issue is that he is headstrong and needs to have a strong guidance to ovoid snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Probably he is not listening to his dad anymore. Hamilton could dominate if he realized his potential

Vettel is joint #2. He has supreme speed and great attitude. I still think he needs to work on his racecraft. But the good news is that he is improving day by day, year by year. He can only get better and be a #1 soon.

 

We seem to agree.
It's interesting to speculate.
Would today's crop of super fit drivers be dominant in the age where strength and stamina were at an even higher premium?
Would the "coddled" driver of today even race in the death traps of another era? On the much more dangerous tracks?
Pass the Pinot.
D

 

Indeed. And speculation is all it can ever be unfortunately.

Yep, certainly - Back in the day they smoked, drank and womanized just before getting in the car. Now they have docs taking blood samples and full time nutrionists (sp?) surrounding them 24x7 - I'd give the modern guys the edge there - Their fitness levels are staggering these days - The old boys didn't have the g-forces etc.

IMO - Yep, no question - They're racing drivers! [This of course assumes they can't compare safety then to now]

There's still a long way to go yet, and my man is closing the gap to the Young Lad - I'm more confident than I was a few months back at least

Cheers,
Ian

 

I think that there will always some that will race for the sake of racing no matter the risk.
Not that it's wise.

I was recently looking at the innards of a Porsche 908. it's not that old a design but safety wise it's of another age.
D

 

+1 Back in the day they simply accepted that one or two of 'em probably wouldn't make it through the season - Just the cost of participating.

Indeed. We can say what we want about Mad Max, but he is the one largely responsible for the *massive* improvements in safety after we lost Roland & Ayrton on that tragic weekend. Crash testing *all* the cars, pre-season, from all different angles etc along with immensely strong carbon fiber construction puts these guys in survival cells that are amazing.

Are they prepared to take risks the old timers wouldn't as a result of this incredible survivability? I think so. Does it make for better racing? They're certainly a lot closer than they used to be......

Cheers,
Ian

 

Apropos of that.
If you can get ahold of the Oct issue of Motorsport read Nigel Roebuck's bit on Langhorne.
A track that scared them more than Spa or the Ring did before they were "tamed".

 

After watching the Killer Years, Jackie Stewart was the main mover and shaker for safety in F1 he has my full respect, Mosley was a band wagon jumper he was responsible for twisting the rules on a car passing some checks, and it went on to crash big time. I think Andreas T12 knows the details.

 

Roger that - Thanks. I like Roebuck and Langhorne rings very vague bells...... Another that springs to mind is Pau - Think a quick version on Monaco. IIRC, it was Surtees who said of it "it's a lot more difficult going flat with a wall inches from your head than a 50 yard run off area".......

JYS was certainly one of the main protagonists, but despite your (legitimate!) hatred of Mad Max he's certainly at least partly responsible and not just a band wagon jumper IMO. Some of the improvements he pushed thru against the will of the teams (!) - In his early days he'd seen too many guys killed and apart from nazi hookers improved safety will be his legacy eventually..... He lost it in later years in the same way as JMB went nuts, but at least he did a little good.

Cheers,
Ian

 

There are those of us who remember when Max was seen as the anti- Balestre. Riding in on a white charger to save F1. What happened to him makes me so wary when I read of the Todt/Pure affair.
D

 

Indeed. He and Bernie made it what it is today - For better or worse..... I certainly remember the huge sigh of relief when he was elected!

You may be right - Dunno what it is about the job (too much power?) but it does seem there's something of a problem with these guys...... I'm still hopeful JT still has all his marbles for now, but I certainly register your concerns.

Cheers,
Ian

 

Much like POTUS, anyone who wants that job should be immediately disqualified!

 

That's why I'm here.

 

How can any of you claim that Hamilton is equal or better than Vettel?

2008 he won with a no name car, and Lewis(with the best car) almost lost the championship (TO MASSA lol) at the last moment due to.... Vettel passing him.

2009 (his first year in a decent car) Vettel had 4 wins and a long shot chance to win the championship(relived in 2010) vs Hamilton's two wins.

2010 Vettel obviously... and this was one of the strongest seasons we have seen with 4 past champions in the running and the only double champ comfortably leading entering the race.

2011 Vettel obviously...

And these last two years have come with Vettel far out pacing Webber and only letting the competition close due to reliabiliy issues and dumb mistakes in 2010.

Alonso is by far the most seasoned and it shows, however Vettel is the real talent of the group.

Vettel is the best on the grid right now with his only fault being maturity albeit his maturity has gone through the roof since last year alone. This year he has made some small mistakes but has minimized points lost (something noone else has done, except maybe alonso) and has clearly already learned from them as well.

 

How long have you been watching F1? First of all, the McLaren was not the best car on the grid when Hamilton won (the Ferrari was, but they continually screwed up their own results that year). Secondly, if you watched last season, you would realize that Vettel in an equally matched car is a much different driver than the guy who basically cruises to victories with little challenge. It's how drivers respond when pressed that dictates who is the class of the field and who is not.

Vettel has not shown me that he is calm under pressure. That he drives the best car on the grid- by far- does not change that. Also, remember that HE almost lost the championship last year to a most un-worthy Ferrari even though he clearly had the best car on the grid.

Seb is really good, but saying he's better than everyone else is a vast overstatement.

 

He is German nuff said

 

Vettel's cocky attitude makes unlikable to many including myself. He is talented for sure but no more so than Alonso or Hamilton. Having a car that is so much more superior in performance than the others makes him untouchable. If Alonso or Hamilton piloted the red Bull....the outcome would be the same as Vettel is enjoying.