Another 12c vs 458 head to head test

I take it you're not planning to do that with a vanilla 458 but one of your specials?

 

I love these kinds of comparisons, they serve a one dimensional purpose, which is to quantify the performance of a car. They do not however provide any context or assessment as to which is the superior overall experience. I think most buyers of supercars have moved beyond using numbers alone.

 

Are we talking about street cars or race cars for the track?

As far as street cars go, public opinion will determine the winner. Give owners some time and they will sort out the better car or the faults and strengths.

The track will sort out the better race car/team.

 

IMO, a superior overall experience is based on a person's automotive knowledge, driving experience and expectations. The only objective criteria are the numbers. So for those that aren't in the know about what to look for in a super car - or how to evaluate the differences between each car, how does that person choose what to buy? The car's looks and numbers? Branding? Status? What their peers think? Comfy seats that don't squeak against the inside of the car? lol

It's really all subjective and it really doesn't matter. Does anybody here really care if other people drive a McLaren or what McLaren owners think of people who drive Ferraris? Or what people who don't own either car think of Ferraris? I certainly don't.

Each car should stand on its own merits. Comparing is fun to do and makes for interesting entertainment, but at the end of the day, people buy a car because they think (or were convinced) it's the better car, based on an informed, uninformed or misinformed decision.

But the majority of us here think the Ferrari is the better car regardless of what anyone else is driving - and that's why we own or want to own a Ferrari, right?

 

Absolutely.

A few days ago I have followed an MP4-12C on the hills above Monaco (up the Turbie and then down the Grand Corniche) and it sounded (and looked) underwhelming. You could barely hear it over the 599's exhaust note.
Certainly a very fast car though.

 

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259723&page=211

 

Thank you.

 

Exactly, but there will always be those with another opinion trying to convince us otherwise. Really futile, IMHO. We each like what we like and that's that.

 

Agree 100%, neither of these cars is a bad car, both are capable supercars.

 

Then again, so singularly failing at its stated objective might qualify it as such.

 

which one is Ron Dennis?

 

Neither, he's an Enzo Ferrari wannabe who's a lifetime late for the party!

 

here's the thing for me, honestly.

I'm sure the McLaren is fine car. But what gets me all fired up are any attempts to somehow "elevate" its status (or its accomplishment) by "putting down" the 458. It just ain't gonna fly.

The Ferrari 458 is an incredible machine ... state-of-the-art normally aspirated motor, in a drop-dead gorgeous body, with a driving experience that's second to none.

I'm far, far from alone in this opinion. The reviewers have spoken, and the 458 wins ... in a virtual shut-out.

Praise the McLaren all you want, and i won't interfere (if it matters). But you'd do better to just stay away from 458 comparisons ... because there, the McLaren is just playing in the wrong league.

 

911 GT2 RS is also faster than MP4-12C. It should be noted that 458 had normal street tires, MP4-12C had semi-slicks. With equal tires results would be very similar.

Braking results of McLaren were very bad. Basically in all german magazines. There is something wrong with its brakes.

Both Supertest Nordschleife results and 0-300-0 results in Sport Auto were far from what McLaren promised to deliver.

 

If you watch this previously posted clip (having got past the annoying adverts first!):

Both Tiff Needell and Jason Plato say that the ABS cut's in too early on the 12C and that it sometimes fights against you when driving fast (to the point where it was throwing them off the track!), whereas the Italia works with you which makes it more fun to drive.

Based on their drive of both cars it seems that Ferrari have a lot more faith in their drivers than McLaren have in theirs.

As for certain members in this thread feeling a need to throw down track challenge gauntlets with the choice of a "professional" driver to Italia owners in order to defend the McLaren and prove that it's the better car, what do they think Needell and Plato are?, club racers?

Both are incredibly experienced professional drivers who know how to drive a car at the limit and both have said that all is not well with the McLaren's driver assist system, that it cuts in far to early and can actually end up causing more problems than it solves.


This whole Italia Vs 12C saga reminds Me a lot of when Honda brought out the NSX to show Ferrari how to build a supercar. It was technically a superior car to the 348 that it was up against and yet just about every single person who test drove both said they'd rather have the Ferrari. Why?, because the Ferrari left it up to the driver to master it. It wasn't designed to dial out all the possible twitches and oversteer moments. It wasn't designed to be easy to drive on the limit, leaving you feeling after a spirited drive with a feeling of: "So what?, that was easy, the car did all the work!". It was designed to make you feel you that it was you who did all the hard work and that you'd achieved something special.

Now it appears that the McLaren has a similar issue. The car seems to be designed to take over as soon as things get a bit out of shape, with an attitude of: "No,no,no.... You're out of your depth already!".

In the Ferrari the attitude seems to be more one of: "Okay!, you got us into this mess now you can get us out of it!".

 

Fair comment,people like different things thank goodness.

 

By this logic, Given that Italia came in third last year, two spots below GT3 RS, Italia places in this comparison at wait...6th. A tie.

Interestingly enough, Sport Auto liked McLaren definitely better than Italia (70 plays 67). They actually liked the McLaren better than the Scud, which was a bit surprising. Anyway, interestingly enough, German and American mags like McLaren better than Italia, while British mags are the other way round. What does that tell you?

As to the laptime comparison, it has nothing to do with comparing cars as such. It is all about the lying Ferrari ways. That's all.

 

I would easily take the Ferrari 458 over the MP4 12-C. But against the Aventador, well thats a different ballgame altogether.

 

Really, a shut-out, you say? Why does Sport Auto like McLaren better than Italia?

Italia, has a driving experience second to none? Have you driven the Scud? Actually Sport Auto liked Scuderia better than Italia, too.

 

What? Carbon tub is only good if it looks pretty and is developed certain way? The only question is if it is as light and as stiff as a "proper" carbon tub.

 

This thread is funny.

A bunch of guys saying they don't care if <insert metric of other car> is better, because they bought the car that pushed the right buttons for THEM.

Then going on to argue for pages and pages trying to ague that their car is better in absolute terms.


It's like high school all over again when kids would argue about Mustangs vs Camaros


I bought a new daily driver a couple months ago, a 370Z. Neat car, I like it. Definitely has it's flaws though, and I'll probably only keep it for a year in favor of something else. But god forbid you say anything on the 370Z forum that implies it's anything less than the best car ever made in the history of the world. I think the thing is that none of my ego is derived from the car, so I don't care one way or other what other people thing - I bought it for my purposes. I can see that if that wasn't true for others, they would need to feel their car is the best ever made, and any competitor was junk, fit only for the scrap heap.


Psychology is a *****

 

We clearly have no lives.