Another 12c vs 458 head to head test

wrong. learn to read.

I wrote a "virtual" shut-out. Sure, you'll find the occasional reviewer to prefer the McLaren. And the occasional reviewer to prefer the Vauxhall Corsa over the McLaren, as well

By a LARGE margin, the Ferrari is favored in the press. The McLaren has FAILED to live up to the pre-production promises, performance metrics and hype.

Did McLaren lie to you?

 

Yep, McLaren did lie to me.

Virtual shut-out? Meaning you are gonna weigh the opinions from Auto Express the same as Sport Auto? Again, there is no shut-out. There is a split. Brits vs. Germans and Americans.

Did Ferrari lie to you?

 

Count ALL reviews do date (objective as well as subjective, if you like). Then get back to us

Nope, Ferrari has not lied. They've delivered on the experience (of which laptimes are but a small part), with each of the cars i've been fortunate enough to own, drive or ride, and i'm a happy customer Well, i'll be happier when my 458 arrives ... but that's a few months off

Go with what makes you happy! I think that's the message most have been shouting here, and elsewhere. If small differences in performance numbers matter most to you, nobody can tell you otherwise, and this will surely guide your choices.

By the way, I have ridden in a scud, and was not as moved as a spirited ride in a 458.

 

Sorry, I don't get the logic. The value for money is in the result. McLaren offers significantly lower weight and higher stiffness. No competition offers that in the same price range. Hence value for money. On the other hand, if the only thing you worry aboutis the sound, then obviously, Italia is a great value for money, since no (ok, excepting Lambo) competition offers the sound in the price range.

 

Again, you are gonna weigh opinions from AutoExpress the same as from Sport Auto, to take an extreme example?

Ferrari did lie to you. You just choose not to pay attention. To each its own, but I dislike being lied to you.

Really, you drove the scud, and you found the Italia's chassis more responsive, more feelsome and the steering deliciously tactile? You are probably the only person in the world. Another, virtual shut-out.

 

K - I think in your hatred for ferrari you have gone off the deep end. You can count on a couple fingers the reviews that concluded with the authors saying they would buy a 12C over a 458. Thankfully for mclaren, at least car&driver preferred the 12C, but seriously do you believe that car&driver has better editors and drivers than EVO? That magazine, as many other american ones, is weak.

Prior to the brit reviews on the 12C everyone on this and every other car forum online acknowledged that the british produce the best COMPREHENSIVE (objective+subjective) car reviews in the business. Now the macca lovers are grasping at straws saying the brit editors need to learn how to drive or are not qualified etc. Seriously, the lack of intellectual honestly is laughable.

Btw, the elephant in the room is that at the end of the day the GT2RS and GT3RS beat and came within a couple seconds of the 12C time at the ring in sport auto. The 3RS has 100 less horsepower, costs half as much, and both have a manual gearbox and are dinosaurs compared to the macca tech fest!

You say Ferrari lies? Mclaren lies just as much.

 

maybe a slightly different perspective (hell, maybe not!)

What Ferrari "gets", in my view, is that the "promise" of a street sports car (or super car) in this market segment is the passion of driving it. The numbers are NOT the end-in-themselves. The numbers, among other things, must SERVE the passion (and i'm an engineer, i recognize the value of quantifying!). If the numbers don't serve the passion, the emotion of driving, then what's the point ... for a street car?

So, for example, if a Ferrari could only post a lateral-G number that's one tenth off the advertised spec, i would not be supremely disappointed. If the emotional excitement is still there, i'm happy

What McLaren has missed, in my humble view, is that the numbers are not ends-in-themselves. If they don't serve the passion, it's a fail

Furthermore, setting laptimes and lateral G's (for example) as the sole, or at least primary, objectives of the car, sets you up for failure as a manufacturer. Miss a number in the reviews, and your car is a failure ... due to the rules you (as a manufacturer) have established for your car in the game.

 

no ... back to remedial reading for you, once again

I've ridden in a scud, never drove it. From what i have experienced, i liked it a lot ... but i love the 458

 

Oh dear it seems there is a member of the McLaren PR department posting here, honestly whats with trying to convince people their opinions are wrong? Its such a waste really, none of us here is wrong, we are entitled to what we like and "better" is subjective, we get you loved your Scud and worship the road the McLaren drives on but really its a bit much trying to sell us on the virtues of the McLaren, this is a Ferrari Forum, thus I would think its clear what most here would prefer.

To my eyes the 458 is a supermodel, the McLaren is the geeky maths genius who will dazzle but ulitmately almost bore you with statistics which mean nothing, the supermodel will enthrall you.

 

+1, I want the last hour of my life back. Not really, but it makes me sound less pathetic for reading all of this.

 

+1. This person (Originally Posted by [email protected] ) has posted, badgered and gone on and on and OMG... on again on a Ferrari Forum devoted to the 458 no less...about how great the 12C is. This shows either a break in reality or lack of common sense. I'm not sure which.

Many, of us here, myself included, have been fair saying "both are good cars, get what you like" but still the badgering continues. Amusing in a sad kind of way. I have to think, at this point, that these posts are meant to annoy us and nothing more.

 

Kryz- I don't understand why you are still on this. You said yourself you cancelled your order on your 12C months ago based on what the car was turning out to be. That was you, not anyone else. I respect your opinion but not your baseless attacks on Ferrari and 458 owners.

I remember you saying before all the tests came out that you only trusted the British press (especially Chris Harris), then you backtracked and said they didn't know anything about the differences in the feel of a car. Now you only trust Sport Auto?

Have you found a car that you are happy with now? I wish you good luck in your search

 

Ok guys what is up with this catastrophically pointless arguement?

Which car do I like the most? My own 240sx of course. Why? Because it brought countless smiles to my face for the last 4 years I owned it for. Does that mean I will flip **** at the next stoplight when some guy in a mustang pulls up to sneer at my "little ricer" or some guy in his boxster owner looks down his nose at me? No, because no amount of his hate for my car can replace the wonderful moments I have had in it. My car has made me happy and it continues to make me happy, and I can't ask any more of it than that. Does that mean I think any less of the 458 or the 12c just because I like my car more? No. They are both fantastic cars, both have their compromises, both have their strengths.

My eyes and ears love that exhaust note of that 458 and its looks, at the same time my brain gets all misty eyed at the hyraulic suspension setup in the mac.

In my opinion Mclaren should have focused on the F1 successor to go against the F70. But they didn't so thats a completely pointless tangent.

I only have one question for the owners, are you happy with your car? If the answer is yes I'm happy for you, if no sell it and get a car that hits that special spot for you.

Who really cares which one is faster? Simple truth is most of their owners would wreck their cars if they even try to approach the upper limits of either of these two cars. So realistically both would plod along at legal speed limits, and at the track would get passed by and old stripped out m3.

If the everyone wanted to go stupid fast without dying, almost everyone would be driving a GTR at this moment, because lets be realistic, nothing is as easy to drive fast as a gtr, and if all people cared about was lap times, theres your answer. Yet not a lot of people get a GTR. Why? Because there are other supercars that have their heart for other reasons.

End of rant. And please people stop this nonsense, get in your car and go for a drive instead of wasting time trying to prove your car is better than someone elses on the internet. bdelp please don't start another thread like this one. See what a mess it becomes.

These two pictures popped into my head after reading this thread.

Krish
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My problem wasn't with the discussion, it was with the animosity between the 2 groups of owners. What purpose does hating the other car serve? Ferrari is the establishment and Mclaren is the upstart. Rather than compare the two properly it just turns into a mud slinging contest of burning 458s and mac gt3s. Why does it need to go there? Having a reasoned discussion on how 2 rival supercars fare against one another? I'm all for it. On the other hand having a **** fest behind the facade of the reasoned discussion (not started by you bdelp)? No, not cool.

On another note wasn't there a thread about the 458 vs the 12c already?

 

There have been a number of different threads always involving the same parties (of which I am one). I agree completely with your statement you have made, these are two great cars, I think a lot of people on this forum acknowledge that (including yourself).

The reason why this argument persists is becuase those that prefer the Mclaren continue to disregard any value of the 458 as either faked or as a result of "fanboy-ism." Or of course the media being incompetent or out and out liers. Thus the circle continues yet again with the exact same things being said over and over

 

What is your favourite colour? Does your choice make it the best colour?

This argument sounds like that!

God only knows I HATE anything that Ron Dennis does or is remotely involved with, I am thrilled that the press pretty much unanimously prefer a 458 (and am happy to bypass the very fact that most journalists know little about driving ), I find the mcLaren ugly and dated, my wife's Abarth 500C makes a nicer noise, and what do mcLaren know about building engines...

Oh and my favourite colour is.....!!!

If you are on this site it is for the love of Ferrari. We don't need to worry or entertain other cars - I mean copies ....

This discussion should end as it is the only way to administer the coup de grace to that "thing"!

The legend is called Ferrari. It has been built over the past 63 years

 

Why acknowledge them? Ignore them. When you turn away from someone who just keeps arguing, it doesn't mean they have won, it means you aren't prepared to waste any more time on them.

The way I feel about this my car is better than yours bs is simple. If someone is going after you saying their car is better, its them that are trying to prove something to you not the other way round, the way I am seeing it, its the 12c fans chasing around the 458 guys. It's your call if you want to take the bite.

My recommendation? Why beat a dead horse a thousand times over? This "discussion" is a bit past its life cycle don't you think? When there are more 12c out there go have coffee with the guy, try out each others cars. I'm sure the mac would have its own charms, I'm hearing that its shockingly comfy for a car as fast as it is. Mclaren fell a bit short in their hunt for the 458 by the looks of it, but you never know, they might add a mid cycle update that might match it or improve it over the 458, who knows?

Does it matter to you? If you love your 458 then it shouldn't. If you don't want to look at me for this attitude, take a good look at the 308 guys. They seem to be the happiest, and I'm not gonna lie, I have beaten one of them in a race, but at the end we were both grinning ear to ear, and frankly it didn't mean a thing that I won, it was two car guys having a great time. Enjoy the cars for what they are. And to the fools who talk your car down, turn your back to them, because it isn't worth trying to make a blind person see if they don't want to. If they are determined to hate the 458 they will, no matter what you say or do. Why waste your time to try and convince them otherwise?

 

Very well said and I share your sentiments!

 

Sport Auto score system works in this way.

70/70 means :
70/80 Overall (458 did 73/80, Scuderia 78/80)
70/80 without wet handling (458 did 67/80, 430 scuderia 69/80)

This evaluation is done only trough numbers recorded during test.
There is nothing of subjective.
The subjective rank for the 458 was
10 for driving enjoyment
7 for suitability for daily use

 

I am really torn on this topic. I saw a "final" MP4-12C in Singapore at the dealer during the GP. It is a very clean, well put together car. The driving position was/is phenomenal. The interior was clean and simple, I would not say sterile but modern. It does lack the charm of the 458 and the style to an extent. The fact few will have one in this area does interest me, and being a controversial by nature peeks that. I hope McLaren executes their drop top version than Ferrari did with the 458. In the end it is nice to have another challenger to Ferrari supremecy, it will keep them on their toes.

 

Correction :
The overall score of the MP4 is 71/80 (458 73/80) and 70/70 (458 67/70) without wet handling because 1 point have been assigned for wet handling performance.