Another 12c vs 458 head to head test

Whatever you do, don't look at the Fisker Karma.

You know-- that "American made" hybrid electric now made in Finland.

Car makers lie???? Never!

 

Constructive competition benefits us all (wrong diction, not war, but positive competition).

http://wot.motortrend.com/video-find-mclaren-mp4-12c-runs-the-nurburgring-10-seconds-faster-than-ferrari-458-italia-128563.html

Well, it is still a good choice in the universe. Your thoughts?

 

apparently you don't get it. maybe reading comprehension is lacking on your part. let me spell it out another way: many companies/corporations in one way or another, stretch the truth, or outright LIES to consumers (ad companies get paid good money to do this slick). look at other car brands, look at the things in your home..take a deep breath...think for 5 whole seconds (however hard that may be)...and ask yourself...why don't those things irk me as much as when Ferrari 'lies' to me? or do they? THAT is what i, and apparently many others here, want to know (for curiosity and academic purposes)..if you choose not to answer, that's ok too.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHcw-QJRIlU&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

 

Thoughts are the same as Alex who posted his opinion,bad journalism,the heading states 5 seconds when it is 10,i think in the end it has to be personnal preference,ive driven both cars,just i like the 12c better,but i had to drive the 458 to make sure in my own mind,because i would be fooling myself if i just read other peoples opinions of both cars,no-one is right its down to themselves,ok it helps that i think the 12c is quicker as im lucky enough to live in the wilds and have driven 1700 miles in 3 weeks going no where,just going out for a blast a couple of times a day.Thats why this car is perfect for me

 

Andy your comments and your approach make sense! You tried one, tried the other and chose the one you prefer. I haven't driven the 12c but I am sure it's an amazing car. The only way I can compare them is on looks and I prefer the 458 and on paper through reviews which is leaving me and many other I think pretty confused.

I don't understand when people just dismiss one car or another purely on reviews or even worst because they feel the manufacturer "lied" to them about the weight of the car....

Krzys from what I understand you feel McLaren lied to you as well but you are still buying the car? That's great just enjoy it man! If you keep looking for a car manufacturer who never "massaged" their figures and in turn won't enjoy the car because of that thought.....you will be throwing a lot of money down the toilet.

 

Andy,
perhaps they were referring to 458 Autobild lap time done in full lap configuration and with passenger
I saw the picture of your VO Mp4-12c
Your car is Magnificient. No other words.

 

Totally agree.

This is truly a great super car era with the Mac, the 458, and the Aventador running our the planet.

 

Thanks guys,yes i agree,whats going to be a big problem now you look at the Aventador stats from quattroporte mag,is were are they going to position the new gallardo,as we know its would be commercial suicide for it to be quicker ,what do you think?

 

i've seen pics of the car in that color, and i agree ... it looks great!

Congrats andy, you've got a magnificent machine

 

Beautiful dream machine. It is a poster car for most high school kids... (or do they still do poster? I am too old... I had my Justification for Higher Education poster as well as Magnum PI's 308 gts).

 

For those who have not seen Andy C's Mac, here are some pics he posted in the British section.

We may disagree with some issues of between the 12 C and the 458 but you have to admit, Andy's got one fine machine here!
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My oh my, one heck of a car ( and in a very -ehm- subtle color ) indeed !

I follow this thread but really can't understand what it is all about.

I always bought my cars when I really liked one and did not give a *fill-in-suitable-really-bad-word-here* about what others thought or someone wrote about it or how it compared to this-and-that.

OK, before actually buying a car it _IS_ worth doing some research on it but, hey, c'mon, we are talking about the topmost car-level of the world, machines people dream about their whole lifes as we ARE the luck-struck souls able to actually OWN and drive one.

So shouldn't we instead show respect for the choice of others, join forces and say: We are in a class of it's own that doesn't really need comparison between its mates.

Let's be happy that a few manufacturers do their utmost to make each and every model better than their predecessors forcing others to follow and/or overtake.

THAT keeps US at the forefront of motoring.

In any car _YOU_ prefer.

Cheers,
Ulli

P.S.:
Love the mansion-type home, too. Congrats !

 

I'm afraid I think it looks horrible but then I'm sorry but the pictures are awful. Mind you, if that's the quality of results he's happy with from his camera no wonder he doesn't mind a few issues with the car.

Nice house though.

Jonarthan

 

Yikes, really? Andy the car looks amazing and please enjoy it in good health.

 

I don't love the McLaren.... but that's a seriously harsh comment!

 

that's a seriously beautiful machine andy! Enjoy her in good health

 

A single drop of oil spoils quite a lot of water...

Seems, Jonarthan is poised for a career as a dealmaker.

Cheers,
Ulli

 

Couldnt afford a good camera,spent all my money on the car!!!!
House exactly 200 years older than the car to the month,so the deeds say!!Maybe thats a good omen for longevity

 

Actually,i forgive you Jonathan,now i realize you must have been drunk making those comments,seen as you couldnt even spell your own name

 

I’m so sorry to spoil this nice moment where Ferrari and McLaren guys are finally talking about their cars without cheating’s accusation or so on.
Oh Yes Ferrari lies …. of course.
Sport Auto started to measure wheels alignment of cars they tested.
Here we have the MP4-12C tested at the ring

http://imageshack.us/f/805/supertestmclarenmp412c4.jpg/

Translation :
Front Axle Measured value Nominal value
Caster 4°,31’ ( 4°,30’ / 5°,00’ )
Toe (Out) -0°,05’ (-0°,02’ / 0,°00')
Camber -2°,15’ (-1°,48' / -1°,12' )
Rear Axle Measured value Nominal value
Toe (In) 0°,06' (0°,03’ / 0°,05&#8217
Camber -1°,40° (-1°,18' / -0°,42' )

Article test : at the front both toe and camber are out of carmaker indicated range. The same for rear axle. Settings are, in a way, driving dynamics optimized.

Now, also my child well knows the effect to ‘open’ front toe (increase toe-in) or to add more negative camber above all using semislicks.
Tires have to last a few hundred kilometers in a magazine test.
A perfect example of a car just went out from car production line, right ?
Nice lap on the ring and Hochenhaim but with such a camber what about the braking ?
Sport Auto
200 Km/h – 0 in 5,2 s and 144,2 m despite the sticky P-Zero corsa
(ABS also doesn’t work not well if the nominal Camber value are out of range of course longitudinal grip is changed)

Same other reference from Sport Auto
458 Italia : 200 Km/h – 0 in 4,8 s and 133,3 m (90 kg heavier and with Michelin PS2)
430 Scuderia : 200 Km/h – 0 in 4,5 s and 125,2 m (P-Zero Corsa)

The highly negative F/R camber explain also bad performance on the wet
Conclusion. All You made the conclusion.

Pages and pages talking of ‘FUFFA’ (Italians dialect means the nothing of nothing) about Ferrari cheatings.
If a milliseconds have been gained from previous test (Bedford, Anglesey) a crusade anti-ferrari was organized instantly.
Now you have datas to play with. But from the '' Virgin Mc Laren''
Krzys, have a good awakening.

 

This is exactly why I have contended in this argument for so long. Thank you Luque, it just takes an engineer!

I have always respected the McLaren, just not the argument that Ferrari is the only manufacturer to breathe on their test cars and that they are morally inferior. This is evidence to show that McLaren clearly aren't completely honest in their tests.

Also, wasn't this car still a PPC? We still don't know the differences between those and the production versions.

Kryz- You were asked whether you would buy a car from a manufacturer that lied in their presentation. Will you now be buying a McLaren after this "blatant cheating?"

 

You are welcome.
Just a correction in my post. It was incresing toe out in front axle , not toe in.
Sorry

 

needs investigating,can i ask luque as a lay man,if this set up effects the brakes the way you have suggested,by as much as 20 metres stopping distance,and the g force cornering has not improved,does the trade off negate any improvement in lap time? if the car has to be braking considerably earlier for every corner?
Sorry if im asking these questions on a ferrari site,but i find luque to be fair in his jugdements

 

Congrats on the car Andy - if you're happy then I'm happy.

I must say, though, that the thread on Pistonheads makes for some disconcerting reading. When long-term supercar owners like Lambo Firstblood are glad to get rid of their 12C then it would have me worried if I was in your shoes.

I hope everything goes smoothly for you and that you have a great ownership experience.


Onno