Another 12c vs 458 head to head test

Personally i love your car, i also love the color! sorry to be different boys but I think it’s just gorgeous, even the front grill is happy, is it seen in a bad light to say that I can see the beauty of the car? Without the exuberance of a Lamborghini or a konnissssseeegggg thing, both of which I like for other reasons. Well done sir.

 

Thanks,very happy,regarding the thread.just like on some of the threads on here its a shame these things happen,nothing is perfect to start with and there will always be more people who like to critizise the 2% that is wrong,but not be prepared to hail the 98% thats great,those people i find are the ones who swap and change like they do their underpants.
The general problems have been really minor,but these have been blown out of proportion,nothing mechanical has gone wrong(after they fixed the door),and the info im getting from the factory is all about re-mapping in two stages,the first one out now.
As you know the problems about the iris is due to uncontrolable events and this will be ready in january.
Thanks again for everyones kind words,as there are only 2 supercars in the world at the moment in this price range,completely different but do the same thing for us petrolheads
Rumours are also rife about them stopping production,why? 37 cars made last week,they have just put back delivery,how many times have we all heard that

 

Andy,
I agree to investigate better.
Please could you upload an image of MP4-12C owner's manual with toe and camber nominal values and range ? just to verify the Sport Auto did not report something wrong.
About your questions I suggest to address them directly to Mc Laren. I know you can do it.
We will be pleased to read official answer from them.
Many thanks

 

Those measurements are very sensitive. We are talking about tenths of a degree. I doubt they were following the manual to take these measurements. A one degree offset in camber is the largest variance, but hardly a major difference. Besides now McLaren will change the operational range to meet customer demand.

 

Already done Luque,all is well,read the post on fastestlaps,im not the quickest writer,not sure how and dont have the equipment to upload,not an excuse just a bit of a caveman
Ps,it is important to me as i have a headed letter stating that in no way will they ever use a non standard car in magazine tests,think of the legal expense i might be sitting on a goldmine

 

Andy, love the 12C. I think in these pictures with the sun it does look absolutely stunning - no other words for it. Many congrats.

 

I am sorry. Are you slow? If McLaren cheats it follows that Ferrari does not?

Ferrari has been producing laughably consistent improvements in Italia's performance across the board. They were outed as frauds by respected journalists (Monkey and Chris Chilton).

And you counter-argument is that wheel alignments on McLAren are out of range? Pathetic.

 

Sure, they all lie. It's just Ferrari that is the worst. That's all.

 

Again, the slight difference is that Ferrari is the worst in this respect:
http://jalopnik.com/5760248/how-ferrari-spins

It's not the fact. It's the level.

 

But one of your strongest reasons to not purchase the 458, if memory serves, was that Ferrari lied to you (about curb weights, and performance of standard production cars).

Now, it has been demonstrated conclusively, and you have even agreed, that McLaren has lied as well.

So now, your position is no longer an absolute one ... but rather, a relative one: "Yes, they ALL lie ... but Ferrari lies worse than the others!"

Is that accurate?

 

Damn! You're right. No-one else ever spells my name right so I suppose it is about time I got it wrong. Regarding the car, there is only one opinion that matters and that's yours. The camera though, is a different matter...

Jonathan

 

Werewolf,please read my last post and all is explained,ps on fastestlaps tim is my middle name

 

andy ... you are clearly a gentleman and a scholar and you have one damn fine machine!

My "beef" isn't with you, good sir , and it isn't even so much with McLaren. I prefer the 458, for a long list of reasons, but many of those are personal.

I'm reacting to arguments in favor of the MP4, that are clearly ... and similarly ... based on personal bias, but are cloaked with a false shroud of "objectivity". Furthermore, i react quite strongly to accusations against Ferrari, when the accuser is ultimately found guilty of the same damn thing.

A couple points regarding the "Ferrari lies" argument :

1. It doesn't explain all of (or even most of) the data ... for example, why many journalists have preferred other marques over the McLaren.

2. There's been plenty of data (presented by Luque, et al, in this thread and others) to counter the "Ferrari ringer" argument .

3. A journalist (or two) coming forward in a blog to "out" Ferrari, is certainly NOT conclusive proof of such a strong accusation. I just don't put ANY journalist on such a high hero-worship pedestal.

4. Guess what ... McLaren lies too !!! Apparently, they ALL lie ... or stretch the truth, or present data in the most favorable-possible light (shocking!).

Ultimately, my point is this: Is there no reason to purchase a car, OTHER than what journalists and internet posters may write about it? Especially when all these "sources" are suspect?

The answer for me is a resounding YES Probably, you would agree. Apparently, not everyone would agree

 

Yes i see your point,i was just replying to luques querie,i was perterbed by the accusation,so felt i wanted answers direct from source,it is quite refreshing to get a direct answer from the factory without being fobbed off,i hope that will still be the case if their market share increases in the future and bad PR is just brushed off as not relavent,time will tell
But i am always on the case!!

 

Just let's all take a deep breath.... "Sure, They all lie. It's just Ferrari that is the worst."

Let everyone reset... Krzys, say your sorry and admit again that all the companys lie. The size of the lie is immaterial and you know it. That fact that you are buying either of these cars proves your a smart man, admit when you are wrong and do not buy the MAC. Everyone else, let us forgive those who trespass against us as those we trespass against should forgive us....

Just some mid day peace keeping before I go to bed before the evening shift starts again.
Tony..............

 

Andy C very stunning Mac!!! Great pictures

 

No, I’m not slow.
Are you slow ? No you are not. You are just a biased person.
You are still stucked on same boring jalopnik link. Which kind of magic Ferrari is using is still unknow.
Today we learn McLaren has sent to Sport Auto a PP car having cambers and toe in-out adjusted to perform better on track. They are completely and intentionally out of the nominal range suited for road use.
Seems you comfortably accept this fact. You comfortably accept to read that the laptime (ring discarded) difference between a MP4-12c (P-Zero Corsa evolution equipped) and a 430 Scuderia (P-Zero Corsa evolution equipped too) can fluctuated from about 3 seconds (Top Gear) to a few tenths of seconds (see last Quattroruote Vairano test).
So reading above, Tell me more about the laughably consistent improvements in Italia's performance across the board ?
Double standards are not accepted anymore.

 

I have found this nice video of Autorevue (Austrian Car magazine). They brought a 458 press car (same of last Evo comparo) in a camping before to destroy an Aventador and have a track session in Adria (Italy) where the 458 set the best lap with ex F1 driver Karl Wendlinger at the steering wheel
Bonfire, bier and sousages but there was no Ferrari crew trying to hide -Idontwhichsecrets-of the car. Enjoy

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ4AcJwHXCk[/ame]

 

I have just reported Sport auto test article translation
< The car’s wheel angles have been driving dynamic optimized >

It’s enough to be labeled as hater in McLaren Forum

http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6470&postcount=94
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6460&postcount=92

< see that Luque user, all over the Internet, trying to drag McLaren down >
Being Italian I well know what disinformation is, under actual government.

And we are just talking about car.
Sad

 

Hi luque,i notice you have quoted a link to maclife,part of which is a post by myself,i havent quoted you,just the fact that the car was at max factory settings,that can be done by the customer on any standard car,which had been confirmed by the factory,im not sure why you find this wrong,.
As i say anyone would do this on a gt3 or i suppose a scud if you were a track boffin.
Lets try to stop the mud slinging

 

Bit of a weird car test but I was most impressed by the tent folding test.


Onno

 

Hi boys, perplexed suspected confirmed bonfire education money intelligence supercars, millions of those tents have been sold & used, by people who will never have a supercar& they manage to make them work because they are idiot proof! But they love camping .Look for the link boys!
You are obviously very passionate about your cars & desires but maybe a little less about communication with us the ordinary people & lots less about the passion for the privilege of driving such wondrous creations.
You see I am buying my first supercar & I have worked like a dog to get it all my life «for many reasons it’s been a long road” I am 58/59 on the 1 nov , I order my car on the 3 Nov. That has been my personal dream of “yes got it». Passion for the privilege, Follow the dream not each other & try to agree on something please & Andy C I still love your masterpiece but I will have to choose so it’s the spider for me .Yes I have read every word from this thread & I find lots of passion for detail … which is good… would like some more general stuff though. Thank you for the time to post all.

 

I hope you live in the south of france,the spider will be perfect for you there.I have a second home in the french alps,and i cant wait to get driving around those mountain roads!!And only a couple of hours away from the stelvio ,SCARY

 

Andy,
I really appreciate your contribute, and your polite manner to discuss argumentation.
I have no doubt Mc Laren were using stock suspensions components.
The main fact is factory values are different.
I mean stock wheels alignment, when car go out from production line, are different and, as you said, are optimized for road use.
So clarified that this is a possible set-up of the car, of what are we discussing about ?
Stock cars ?
Or optimized one (by carmaker) through different settings they can tweak ?
For example a 458 have wheel alignment and adjustable ride height too but It seems it was indicated as a cheating practice.
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2734&postcount=109
Don&#8217;t you think it&#8217;s a double standards ?
Mc Laren can, Ferrari can not ?
That&#8217;s the whole point of discussion.
What press car are. For every Sport carmaker of the world not only for Ferrari as someone in this thread want to make believe.


PS : By the way I would like to add that a car that needs 20 meters more for a complete stop from 200 km/h, should be not used on the road. In case of pedestrian kill, a judicial examination of the car can leave the driver in a really bad situation.
Just seen few times in my career.

 

The post i used was from an f1 owner who owns ferrari,s talking with a 458 owner he knows,no proof,just talking between ferrari owners ! i think we are all quilty of suggesting these things and its up to us to keep the manufacturers on the straight and narrow.
As i said in an earlier post,i went striaght to the factory to get answers from Mclaren when you posted your findings,i think if a man in the street can alter his car with a spanner,thats quite a different thing to what you are suggesting.
people will read into these things what suits them for their purposes,im with Bdelps attitude,we can poke fun at each other and point out descrepancies of each others cars,we might not like each others manufacturers,but we respect them for what they have achieved.
I also think now there are two at the top,the press will end up having more power to out anyone who isnt playing by the rules,so its win win for the customer