Starting a Major on a 1975 GT4 | FerrariChat

Starting a Major on a 1975 GT4

Discussion in '308/328' started by greggbferrari, Oct 29, 2011.

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  1. greggbferrari

    greggbferrari Karting

    Jan 4, 2010
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    Gregg Brown
    #1 greggbferrari, Oct 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I’m starting a 30K major, with the goal of springtime road trips—since the missus will be along relaibitlity is the watchword. Many others have been down this path, but I found the photos posted on the site really helpful when planning the job, so perhaps some of these will be helpful too. Of course, Birdman's great post is my guide although a couple of things are proving to be different between his 1977 308 GTB and my 1975 GT4.
    I’m really clumsy and I’m working in a tiny garage so I pad everything up. These are seven dollar moving blankets from Harbor Freight cut to the arch and then clipped in place with 3/4 inch pipe insulation. Works ok, although it pulls apart when you climb on top a lot. I also put a piece of padded plywood on the rear trunk, knowing I’ll climb on it.
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  2. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    Dec 21, 2000
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    How many times have I even set my own time limits and absolutely blew right past them...

    ;)

    If you stick to just doing the key work and not get too tied up with the "while I'm in here" jobs, then yes, Springtime is reasonable, but don't get too bent out of shape if you go past it.

    I did a suspension/brake/major rebuild that lasted 16 months. Rob Garven did his major in, I think 20 months.

    I love the blankets, they will do a good job (I wish I had used similar). Careful with the trunk lid, it is skinned in aluminum. I removed that and the engine lid completely when I did my first major (but I also pulled the motor out, so that was necessary).

    Post many questions, they will be answered (or at least directed to previous threads).
     
  3. greggbferrari

    greggbferrari Karting

    Jan 4, 2010
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    Gregg Brown
    #3 greggbferrari, Oct 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Peter, I know what you mean--springtime is more to stop me from going to far down the "while I have it open" path. Without this site I wouldn't even try.
    Without the fender liner I can see what I’m dealing with. Oil all over, rotted air conditioning mounts and adjuster at max, and something ugly dribbling from the water-pump bleed hole. You can also see that grease has spun out of the rear tensioner bearing, so there must have been some in there.
    Air conditioning belt tensioner and alternator removed. Note that on my car the alternator bolt pointed toward the engine, so it was easy to remove. Since the alternator actually drained oil I think I will send it out for rebuild.
    Unlike Bridman’s experience, I ended up removing all of these studs on the front cover before I could move the AC pump out of the way. Here’s a shot of the top of the pump so I can keep track of the shims. (I’ve drained the fuel and removed the vapor lines.) On a GT4 (at least mine) the AC lines go over the top of a frame tube, so I used the mounting bolts for the vapor recovery can (also previously removed) and hug the pump with clothes hanger wire. I put a couple of vacuum caps over the pumps studs to reduce the likelihood of them punching through the tank.
    The last shot is looking up at the upper AC pump bracket. Other than the two at the top of the pump there were no other shims on the brackets. (I hope.) Note the red overspray—the car was green coming from the factory.
    I’ll remove the covers tomorrow. The rear cover won’t come out without the air-cleaner snout out of the way and I want to take that apart when I’m wide awake.
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  4. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    now that you emptied the tank, it is a good time to pull it and replace the 2 long hoses that disappear into the body toward the front. Good luck.
     
  5. Brian Harper

    Brian Harper F1 Rookie
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    Thus begins a service that takes 20 months instead of 3. But it is a good idea. That heater hose has a lot of opportunity for failure.

    I removed my engine and trunk lids by removing the E-clips from the hinge pins and pulling the pins. It guarantees that it will be aligned exactly as it is now.
     
  6. Fave

    Fave F1 Rookie

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    Just use the good braided hose, not some cheap Chinese crap. For the few extra bucks its worth it.
     
  7. greggbferrari

    greggbferrari Karting

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    Gregg Brown
    #7 greggbferrari, Oct 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I haven’t taken the tanks out, and I had just decided to let the front to rear heater and vacuum hoses go for now. I plan to re-vamp the rear suspension bushings, brakes etc. as the next big project, and I thought it would be easier to get the tanks out with the suspension off. Now I wonder...
    I wish I had seen the e-clips. I scribed mine, but that will be a PITA.
    Anyway, looks like I have enough to do. The picture with the air cleaner housing off is not too discouraging. Doesn’t look like any big miss-fires and soot in the chokes. The plugs were uniformly rich except 6, which was wet. Since I hadn’t done a real plug-pull and the spark-plug boot was torn on 6, so I figured “fix spark before fooling with fuel.” I’m thinking I will just replace the idle needle o-rings, clean the carbs externally and give it a pass for now. Car ran OK before with a slight miss, which I think now was 6.
    With the air horn off I could get the rear cover off. (The studs came out, but I can’t imagine how to get that cover off if they hadn’t. I noticed on Birdman’s pictures his rear cover was fastened with bolts.) Just looking at these pictures it looks like cam and cam drive seals at least, and maybe crank seal. I’m still a little puzzled by the black goop from the water pump. I have a new pump from Superperfomance, I hope that does the trick. I also don’t like the white RTV all over.
    Next: Initial clean-up and then measure the valve clearances.
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  8. MNExotics

    MNExotics F1 Rookie
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    while its apart check the lower drive bearings for play and leaks. Your pics indicate the seals may have gone out. With everything else off this job will only take a couple of hours with the right tools and is not terribly expensive to do.
     
  9. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    That "mysterious black goop" coming from the water pump could be a combination of many fluids like coolant, engine oil and fuel.
     
  10. greggbferrari

    greggbferrari Karting

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    #10 greggbferrari, Nov 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Before I cracked the seal I wanted to clean some gunk of the engine. I made a portable parts bath from a cheap sump pump form Harbor Freight, a parts washer brush and a PC power supply. Lying in a puddle with a 12v hack is more comforting than my first version, which used a 110v AC pump. Yes, that's a tube sock filter for the pump.
    I used the proper Aviation Simple Green which can be bought pretty reasonably from Amazon. The whole lash up worked just OK, well on the frame and side of the engine, not so much on the top end. I put a 32 quart pan under the bucket but I still lost about a third in an hour.
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  11. greggbferrari

    greggbferrari Karting

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    Gregg Brown
    #11 greggbferrari, Nov 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    With things a little cleaner I pulled the Disti’s and the valve covers. I was pleased to see only a little oil in the front distributor. I have a Pertronix kit so will only worry about one set of advance mechanism but I will put everything back with points, get the car running and then make that change.
    With the rear valve cover off I noticed the pocket around the head-bolt closest to the crank doesn’t drain into the sump and a big glop of black crude oil had accumulated there. That’s the problem with garage queens, they never get shaken enough to get everything circulated.
    The cam seals were coated with white RTV, and fell out of their pockets immediately. When they are replaced, what’s best: you thread the seals on the cams, past the seal surface and leave them hanging just behind the pulleys (like the picture, but w/o the RTV), seal up the valve covers and then put Loctite on them and press them in, or do you assemble with the seals in place?
    If you assemble them and then put the covers on is it best to put Loctite on the bottom half set them in their “pockets” then put a little on top? Searching the other posts, Verrel recommends Loctite 515 or 518, but I can’t figure out when to seat the seals since these are anaerobically setting adhesives.
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  12. greggbferrari

    greggbferrari Karting

    Jan 4, 2010
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    Gregg Brown
    #12 greggbferrari, Nov 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Cam marks lined up perfectly. All of the clearances are right on the top of the range, the intakes would fit a .010 inch, but not a .011. The exhausts were all .013 or .014. I plan to pull the cams to replace the seals instead of removing the drive pulley’s so I’ll measure the shims, but none need more than a couple of thousands. (Thanks again to RobertGarven for his posts.)
    A trick I use when checking the clearances is that once I get Cyl. 1 to TDC, I put a straw in the spark plug hole of the next valve in the firing order, mark the height of the straw compared to the top of the spark plug well (red arrow) and then move the crank a quarter turn to line up for the next measurement . Once the crank is on the TDC mark a put a second mark on the straw (black arrow, TDC). Doing this makes me feel better that I’m measuring the right valve at the right height as I progress through the firing order.
    By the way, the attached is my checklist when I started, although some things were done out of order. I’ll revise at the end and re-post.
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  13. greggbferrari

    greggbferrari Karting

    Jan 4, 2010
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    #13 greggbferrari, Nov 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I noticed that the #10 cam cap (Intake, rear, far left) is on backwards. All of the other caps have numbers stamped on the outside of the cap and on the rail that mates to the cam cover as you can see for #9. #10 has the number stamped on the rail, but the cap has the number on the inside, as pictured. Since the car ran fine before, do I rotate the cap back to where it was from the factory, or leave it where it is. I’m half-done taking the belts off, and the cams come out next. I’ll send a picture of the wear pattern, but any thoughts?
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  14. 1974gt4

    1974gt4 Formula 3
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    ...found this, I think you should at least inspect it.

    Check removal torque when disassembling insure it is ball park correct...

    Look for abnormal wear or early failure indications on the bearing face and the cam journal.

    If there is any assembly issue that impacts oil feed or oil film, make it right....

    However...As you stated, if it is all o.k. on inspection I would leave it installed as it is.

    interesting note,
    has this been disassembled prior to you ?

    Could it have come from the factory in this fashion?
     
  15. greggbferrari

    greggbferrari Karting

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    I have records of attempts to seal the cams, and I sure the gaskets were replaced, along with a lot of white sealant goop.

    I'm adjusting the valves so the cams were on their way out anyway.

    Good idea about the un-torque spec. I was also considering using some fine-guage plasiguage to see what clearances look like with the cap in both directions. The manual seems to indicate that the clearance is .053-.083 mm, green plastiguage has a .025-.076 range. Anyone had experience with using plastiguage for this? The rogue cap is at the end of the cam, so a bore guage might be possible, too.
     
  16. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

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    #16 PV Dirk, Nov 14, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
    Looks like a great project and I wish I were involved in one myself. I did my major about a year and a half ago. I had the benefit of few responsibilities so I took two weeks of vacation and looked at it like a job. My goal was to be with the car from 8 to 5 every day. Two weeks, about 130 hours and it was a driver again. I also replace fuel and coolant lines and got into all the items I found in there. A very rewarding experience. I look forward to following your progress.

    I too followed birdmans directions and pulled my cams to reseal the camgear end but my engine is set up a bit different on the later 3.2.
     
  17. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    OK. I am stupid. PLEASE learn me something. :eek:


    How do you know the cam cap is backwards? I am changing out my cam seals and cogs for one-piece aluminum so this is of great interest to me. 1981 308GTSi.
     
  18. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

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    The cam caps are numbered as is the head. The numbers line up, close to each other. If all the numbers line up but one has the number on the other side of the cam cap, that cam cap is backwards.
     
  19. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Five Time F1 World Champ
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    So there is ONLY ONE number on each cam cap ????
     
  20. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    #20 Sledge4.2, Nov 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You will know if the cam cap is backward if your mechanic puts it on the wrong way and it siezes the cam causing pistons to collide with valves. Ask me how know.

    Attached is a picture of the offending cap that was put back on the wrong way, you can see how the cam scarred it, binding it up just enough to sieze the cam.

    I would put them back on exactly like they came off, regardless if if they are on backward or not (assuming the engine ran when you took it apart). If someone lined bored them on backward, when you reverse them you might have a problem.
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  21. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    #21 Sledge4.2, Nov 14, 2011
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    I remember seeing numbers on the caps, but not on the head...

    where would they be in this pic?
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  22. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Look at the last picture in post 13. You can see the "9" on the cap and on the side of the head just to the left of the cap.
     
  23. PV Dirk

    PV Dirk F1 Veteran

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    #23 PV Dirk, Nov 14, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
    I was actually a little wrong. Now that I review the pics, on my engine the number was stamped on top of the cam retainer and also on the face of the head and they were all stamped facing the same direction, as in they will all be upside down or rightside up from viewing direction, if one is the other was something is off. I can't find a good enough picture that shows both numbers, head and retainer but I remember they were marked for matching. Mine is an 87 so my apologies for being something of a hijack as this is clearly different than other model years.
     
  24. greggbferrari

    greggbferrari Karting

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    #24 greggbferrari, Nov 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I pulled the #10 cap, which was rotated vs. stock. (The number 10 stamped on the cap faced in toward the spark plugs, unlike all the other caps which had matching numbers on the cap and the head.)
    The first picture shows the cap “flopped” down. So the shiny witness mark on the bottom of the cap shows that the clearances are too tight at the top of the journal. I placed two pieces of Plastigauge on the cam and re-torqued the caps. The second picture show that the clearance is.001 or smaller—the Plastigauge just flattens out past its range.
    I cleaned the cap, added new Plastigauge, flipped the cap around to so the number aligned like the other caps and re-torqued the cap. The third picture seems to indicate that the clearance with the cap in the correctly numbered orientation stays about .002, which is in tolerance.
    OK, fchatters, what do you think? Use gray Scotchbright on the cap and cam, turn it to the way Enzo numbered it (and where the clearances look closest) and hope for the best? Take the cam out, torque the cap in place and use a brake cylinder hone to rough the surface and help make it a little rounder?
    How should it be done properl
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  25. PRS

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    Gregg, I vote for putting the cap on the proper way (like the other caps). As for honing it, I'd check to see if it's out of round first. I would pull the cam, torque the cap and take measurements before scratching anything up.

    *** Disclaimer *** I'm just stating what I would do in your position. :)
     

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