RIP Champ fought all the greats in a true golden age of heavyweight boxing. Ali,Foreman,Bugner,Quarry,that hard man Chuvalo and of course Oscar B. Lets not forget he won Gold at the Olympics.
OK, My employee and I are going back and forth where Joe stands amongst all time fighters. He thinks Joe is top 5 all time (pound for pound) I say NO WAY not even close. I don't even think he was/is top 5 Heavyweight of all time. (maybe #5...). No respect to Joe, but give me your take.
First, my boxing knowledge is at best slightly higher than that of the average person. That said, top 5 pound for pound? No way. I think p4p pretty much eliminates most heavyweights though I understand Frazier was small for his class. Off the top of my head I thought of the Sugar Rays, which alone would account for 2/5 of the list, Ali, that's 3/5 and I'm sure there are others more worthy for the final 2 spots than Smokin' Joe. FWIW: http://boxing.about.com/od/history/a/50_greatest.htm
Not in the top 5 heavyweights,but fought in the top 2 fights of all time the 1st Ali fight followed by the Manilla fight.
Top 10 heavyweight, and maybe number 10, but not top 5. Can't argue with the list much although spots could be shuffled some.
I don't care what ANYONE says, But I really do think Tyson was probably the best HW of all time. AND, I was NOT a Tyson fan!!!!! Or let me rephrase that: Tyson could have beaten any of those heavyweight in his prime except MAYBE Forman?????? Forman was TOO BIG for Tyson. 1. Tyson 2. Ali 3. Marciano (only cause he was undefeated) (ONLY) (I think Tyson would have Killed him!) 4. Joe Louis I really don't know much about Dempsey and Jack Johnson. (WAY before my time and I HATE watching black /white film.) 5. Forman? That list is AWESOME but again, I really can't agree. I got into boxing in the mid '70's and did rewatch some good stuff probably of the late 60's. but that's it. Anything before that bored me (black/white film again). See, Salvador Sanchez isn't on that list or either is Ricardo Lopez or even Wilfredo Gomez. Hagler would be so much higher on my list. All this is My opinion.
Undefeated Joe defeated undefeated Ali (despite all that Ali had going for him(media bias, psych ops, world wide fan support, Angelo Dundee, being much larger and heavier than Joe). Regardless of what came after that for either fighter, this alone makes Joe one of the top ten heavyweights, and the higher Ali is ranked, the higher Joe must be ranked. Two pro fighters defeated Joe, Foreman and Ali, and Ali could only do it after he himself had previously lost to Joe and after Foreman first destroyed Joe. As for Ali, I might rank him top ten too, but his miserable record against Norton (at most, Ali won the third fight, but even that is questionable - no way did Ali win the second Norton fight) and his loss to (all of seven pro fights) Leon Spinks as well as the second Liston (non) fight and his predilection for repeatedly fighting certain fighters (notice how he never gave Foreman a rematch) make it difficult for me to do. Joe Frazier defeated Ali because he, Joe, came to fight while Ali rope a doped.
If you don't care what anyone says then why ask? And the list has to do with boxing, and nothing at all to do with the fact you hate watch B&W film. Go back to your Alabama Crimson Tide threads, LOL
Okay if you don't care what anybody say's I won't opine why he wasn't Agree Sanchez and Gomez should be on the list. My top 5 1. Joe Louis 2. Jack Johnson 3. Muhamad Ali 4. Larry Holmes ....WAY underrated. 5. George Forman I don't think you can rate a fighter on one fight. Frazier beat Ali once, so did Leon Spinks. You have to look at his entire body of work. Frazier's is not that good. He's not even got a firm spot in the top 10 IMO.
You know what, I am always afraid to put Larry Holmes. I was a HUGE fan of his but always hear the bad and not the good. So I left him out. Who did he fight, who didnt he fight, bla bla bla BS. But Yes, Larry is a great top 10 on my list.
no hate he had lol behind it and those Creed fans are still bitter about Rocky beating him twice. That's right I said TWICE and you know it's true!!!!!
Larry followed Ali, that's was his fate, but his jab was one of the best of all time, surely equal to Ali's. He had more power than Ali, and his foot work was almost equal to Ali. He didn't have the speed of Ali. He could have easily beaten Frazier. Forman would have been interesting, since I doubt he would have used a rope-a-dope tactic. All the other Ali foes would have been easy for Holmes. Save for Norton which gave them both hell, but is not even in the top 20 IMO. I'm sure you could say the other way around too.
I would place Holmes ahead of Ali; he never lost to a Leon Spinks (plus other reasons). If people would separate politics from boxing, I have to believe that Ali would fall quite a bit in the ranking of heavyweights. I just finished watching Frazier - Ali 1, and I don't see how Ali won a round given all the holding, pushing off, and leaning against the ropes which he did. All these illegal tactics were done because Joe hit and hurt Ali time and again. Merchante (the ref) also failed to call an 11th round (2:50) knock down of Ali. Watching Merchante allow Ali to hold Joe at will (keeping Joe from throwing more punches) is disgusting. Had Merchante made it clear to Ali that he would lose a point for holding, pushing, or laying on the ropes, it would have been a much different fight (Frazier K.O. of Ali). Also, I have to believe that Ali had more holding and pushing contact than punching contact against Frazier.
Are you referring to the second fight? That's the boring one of the three, Ali pulled Fraizer's neck down when he got close for most of the fight. He did that to Foreman and others too. Have someone try that on you, It will sapp your strength pretty fast. In Manilla, the ref Padilla was watching for it and didn't allow. I think I remember him slapping Ali's hands off.
First fight. Interesting point about the first fight is the 11th round knockdown of Ali by Frazier which Mercante failed to acknowledge even though both Ali's knees and gloves hit the canvas (ten seconds into the round or 2:50 of round eleven). Don Dunphy wondered aloud what Mercante was doing. Also, Mercante - years later acknowledged that he should have dealt more decisively with Ali's holding (I believe that Mercante only warned Ali three times the entire fight, and he could have warned Ali multiple times each round - and he never deducted points). If you've watched the fight listening to the commentary, try re-watching the fight with the sound off and just focusing on the action (Burt Lancaster is doing color commentary, and he's so biased in Ali's favor that he's blind to the action in the ring). Ali holds Frazier for a reason, and that reason is that Joe's punches hurt Ali again and again and again, and Joe wasn't going to stop punching until Ali was down, Ali was K.O'd, or the fight was over. Ali wasn't prepared for a fighter with Frazier's style: relentless powerful punches thrown throughout each round as well as the entire fight. Ali had to hold Joe as well as lay on the ropes. If he, Ali, had been forced to fight the entire fight (throw punches or move about the ring without laying on the ropes), he would have been knocked cold or fainted from exhaustion. Remember, every time that Ali grabbed and held Joe, Joe was supporting Ali's weight in addition to his own. And, every punch that Joe threw when being held was compromised in part because because of this. If Merchante had not allowed Ali to grab, hold, and press down on Joe's neck, we would have seen an entirely different fight. Watch the fight closely time and again, and I'll wage that the more you watch it, the more you'll see how Joe carried the fight and how Ali stalled for time throughout the fight. My youngest brother was a fanatical Ali fan, and once he began to re-watch this fight, it really opened his eyes and changed his opinion (he began to see what had actually transpired and not what the hype or Burt Lancaster's color commentary was selling).
