Since I changed my F1 pump now my car goes to neutral randomly up or down shifting

It could be that your F1 system needs to be recalibrated.....just guessing.......Good Luck.......Steve

 

Yes, that , or maybe there's some air in the system also? (but I presume you've already been down that road to the best of your abilities).

DIY lover I am but sometimes you gotta turn to the professionals for help with the extra "techie" bits.

Anyway, happy to bump your thread and hope you find the answer soon.

 

You could have gotten a bad pump, it happens. I'd take it to a dealer and have them do the self learning procedure, that should root out most problems.

 

could also be aclutch problem f

 

Hi bro, any updates?

Well, I escaped from the 355 and got a 360 because of the whole F1 system and sure enough I ran into my first 'issue' a couple of days ago, and on my drive today it was confirmed.

As you describe, if I sometimes upshift or downshift, the car will drop into N. One second later, when I upshift/downshift as the car is coasting, it will choose a gear and proceed without any problems.

I too have done extensive research on the matter and have decided on the following:

1. Check the fluid reservoir once the car cools off.
2. Replace the relay if the reservoir level is not what it should have been.
3. Well, might as well get a new pump motor.

Question:
Is there any way to "gauge" what the pressure is at the pump, without the need of an SD device?

 

^ confirmed
happened twice just now, from 3rd to 4th

only at lower than 70kmh speeds

any ideas?

 

Sorry but are you saying replacing the pump and relay fixed your problem and it never went into N since?

havw you checked the clutch life?

 

My 360 was jumping to neutral on mostly upshifts, but occasionally on downshifts as well. I'd say once ever 4-5 minutes it would shift to neutral. Recently, I had a major service done and the F1 fluid was replaced and also the PIS setting on the clutch (76% wear readout) was adjusted from 5.5 to 5.0. Since then, about 125 miles driven, it has not jumped into neutral between shifts a single time and clutch performance is dramatically smoother and quicker. My guess is either the PIS adjustment or F1 pump fluid replacment fixed the issue (hopefully!).

BTW, I have a 2001 360 with stock TCU. Using Leonardo software, the PIS was directly adjustable despite the fact that I've heard that model years prior to 2002 could not be PIS direclty adjustble. Perhaps only the Ferrari SD2 software cannot do it, but the third party Leonardo software can?

 

Good luck!

That's great, hopefully it did fix the issue and it won't return. Ever.
I cannot advize on the Leo vs SD, but would be interested to know this.
PS: An indy garage operated on my F355 F1 with a Skilltester and basically ruined the car so bad that it did not shift and even the AD with their SD could not get it back to shifting on the original unit.

As for my F360 going into Neutral:

I have now confirmed that it ONLY happens during upshifts from 3rd to 4th and it only happens SOMETIMES.
Edit: By sometimes I mean if I try to upshift to 4th and instead it goes to N, when I upshift again it will either choose 5th or 6th.
If I intentionally downshift again to 3rd (if the speed allows it), I can shift to 4th normally. Hmm!

- The pump pressurizes fine when I open the door.
- There are no other symptoms.

Since it is solely 3rd to 4th upshift related, this rules out the pump itself being the culprit. Correct?
I am not sure I understand the electronics of the relay as much, but again, since it is 3rd to 4th only, it is most likely a mechanical issue?

That said, could the F1 fluid, once it gets hotter, be a cause of this?
Or are we talking about the mechanics of the transmission? A link of some sort?

 

I love the fact that there are quite a few DIYers working on their Ferraris. I do not own a Ferrari yet. I do know that when it comes to some "mysterious" car problems I have found that starting with the smallest (sometimes cheapest, less obvious) fix is where you can find the resolution to the problem.

You've done the relay, so flush the system and put in new fluid (somehow enough air may have been introduced into the system to make it get a little wacky). After all, with a new pump new fluid can't hurt.

With regard to air in the system, I think changing the F1 pump is similar to changing a power steering pump. Upon completion of a power steering pump replacement you have to top off the fluid, then turn the steering wheel lock to lock a few times to get all the air out of the system, then top it off again.... think about it. I don't know how you would get air out of the F1 system but I bet that a flush and new fluid is a step in the right direction.

 

Let me just add a few bits:

To bleed the F1 system you would use a SD or Leonardo machine as there is a procedure to follow. However there is a gent or two here that have outlined directions on how to do so without the diagnostic tool mentioned. Use a search to find his thread here in this section. (edit - Here it is: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139344602&postcount=23 )

Next I believe that the F1 fluid can & will deteriorate to the point where shift action can be compromised. Fresh fluid in these systems is paramount. Not only for shift action, but for the life of the seals & bores within the actuator.

Next the diagnostic units listed above (SD & Leo) can also put your F1 system through a mechanical "learn" test that could help with your single gear shift issue. It may simply be a alignment woe and the "self learning" procedure available with these tools could help with that misalignment.

Lastly PM smg2 (Scott) as he is a very knowledgeable resource on these systems. He is often busy but may be able to help with your questions more thoroughly.

 

Thanks for all in the information.

I added fluid before my drive, and now the car dropped into Neutral between other shifts. 1st to 2nd is an example.

I think the most sensible thing is to now flush and bleed the F1 fluid.

 

IIRC, most my prior neutral shifts were upshifts between 3rd to 4th too, but I'm pretty sure that was not exclusive, and rarely, maybe 2-3x, it did it on a downshift. I did notice that this only happened when I was accelerating slow to moderate, but never when accelerating fast.

Again, the only things that could have fixed it for me was the F1 Pump fluid replacment during the major or the PIS adjustment from 5.5 to 5.0. My F1 Pump seemed to work fine too just as you describe, so perhaps the fluild was just degrading or there was air in the system, I'm not sure.

 

Mike, I spoke with the 'go to guy for an SD3' locally (besides the stealership) who said he will look at the car Saturday.

I did tell him that initially it was solely from 3rd to 4th during some upshifts.
He mentioned the clutch wearing out, but I explained that the fact that when I added fluid on my own, the problem got "worst" in that other gear shifts starting dropping to N he said to bring it on Saturday.
Edit: It's great that I found him, with an SD3, to check all the readings for clutch wear, F1 system, and engine output since I am going to perform a major and could end up going with him.

Very excited to go to learn more about the F1 in the F360.
I have bought the F360 primarily for the more pocket and user friendly (maintenance wise) F1 system, coming from a F355 and the need to dish out $11k on a new power unit for it.

Talking also with a top mechanic at the AD, he tells me this is a symptom that the F1 system needs to be bled. He says more bubbles may have been created when I added the fluid on my own and closed the lid.

I will let you guys know.
Thanks for the information and feedback, and good luck to the OP.

 

Lots of possible causes. Air in the system is one possibility but this could be a position sensor, a bad actuator, in correct PIS, or several other problems. The only way to properly diagnose this is with a SD, some knowledge, and a little time. You won't get the correct answer by seeing how/where/when it shifts, there are just too many possibilities. Good luck.

 

^ True, in my defense I did not even know an SD3 "existed" beyond the AD's parameters over here.

I knew jumping to a 360 was the right decision, now if only we can install this F1 system from the 360 on the 355

OP, please keep us posted and this thread alive.

 

Hooked the car up to an SD3. Clutch shows 63%. Can't remember now lol but I reckon that is 63% WORN already and not life remaining, right?
PIS showed 5.9mm and he could not adjust it.
He said it should be 5.0 to 5.2, and that this means I am in need of a new clutch (and sensor).

When I asked him why is it that it is mostly from 3rd to 4th, he said because the Neutral 'falls between them'. Any ideas? It would make sense on a gate, right?

He said there is no need to flush/bleed the F1 fluid/system. And that this will be carried out once I change the clutch anyway.

Any thoughts or experiences welcome.

 

My car and tcu is a 2001, and we were able to adjust pis with leonardo software to 5.0. Definately improved smoothness. Afaik, sd3 cannot adjust pis on tcus prior to 2002.5 version tcu, but like i said, i was able to with leonardo on my 2001.

I would not rule out f1 pump fluid change. How much is it to do? 63% is the wear. You probably have at least 4-5k miles left on that clutch and i would be very disinclined to replace it before trying all other avenues. As i said, either the f1 fluid replacement or pis adjustment fixed my neutral jump issue.

 

Thanks a LOT Mike! My car is a 2000 and afaik has the stock 2000 TCU.
By F1 pump fluid change, do you mean actually bleeding the system with an SD3?
Or just flushing the fluid itself (pumping it out) and then refilling the tank with what the manual says it should be filled with?
Sorry for the silly question, just want to make sure I get you right and answer you specifically.
As for what the bleeding (with SD3) will cost, it's around $600 with fluid based on what this guy will do and to be honest that is way too much IMHO without doing clutch/sensor/bearing work.
-I spoke with him about performing a major service (my parts are with me already) ALONG with the clutch replacement and bleeding, he said he can do it for $1.5k which I think is a good amount for labour if I get to drive the car another 5000km (already put on around 1000km in 2 weeks)-

Thanks for the words of encouragement, I too agree and 'feel' that the clutch can hold up and since the PIS cannot be reset with the SD3, I am thinking of using the car until it becomes a PITA if it starts to drop to Neutral between other gears.

What do you think of his reasoning that it is mostly happening between 3rd and 4th because N is 'between them'? Does that mechanically make sense? Any diagrams to illustrate?

 

Bump

 

I believe your problem may be the throw-out bearing.

The reason why:

The SD3 can-not set your or re-learn your clutch due to the faulty throw-out bearing. Everytime a gear is selected the bearing slides back and forth depending on where it needs to be, with that said, when you are in third and shift into fourth, that is where the throw-out bearing sticks on the shaft. Which the positioning sensor gives it a nuetral reading because it is trying to understand what gear it is suposed to be in.

Furthermore: this is why you can not get a PIS lower than 5.9---------due to your throw-out bearing grabing the shaft intermitently while the SD3 is trying to re-learn it. Which is why changing gears stick only once and awhile, however, it will get worse until the bearing is changed.

I see it is a 2001 F1 360. Even if you have a low mileage 360 and lots of clutch left, the throw-out bearing ages and gets sticky. Some owners will not have this problem but others will.

Cost: The throw-out bearing is low costing part, however the labor is the same as changing the clutch out. You will almost pay the same amount to only repair/replace the throw-out bearing----while being realistic you should replace the clutch while the tech is there anyways.

I have talked to Ferrari owners that have tried to spray a lubricant on the bearing while the clutch still mounted. Then work the bearing back and forth with a bar. This may give you some time but you will probably "cuss" a few times doing it.

If it was mine, I would get the clutch replaced. I have not read all your posts which some other chatters may have already stated the clutch replacement, but am just giving you my advice and somewhere else to look.

Good Luck

greyhair