2012 Rule Proposal for 348/355 Class

"Please help me understand why Statement 3 is so important to you if you also believe in Statement 2?"


As I understand what John's saying, he wants stock shocks, but doesn't want to exclude anyone who already has a modified car. If you have aftermarket shocks, you can join the series, your car can race, but it will be heavily penalized. The primary purpose of the extra weight isn't really to equalize the cars, it's a mechanism to allow modified cars into the series. The series is to be designed for, and therefore favor, use of the stock shocks. Aftermarket shock guys don't have to incur the cost and hassle of switching back to stock shocks, but they'll be committing competitive suicide if they don't. So, in the "big weight penalty" scenario, I and everyone else with modified shocks will switch back to stock. Sounds like it's a done deal, so time to dig out the old shocks. Putting a lot more weight in cars that are already too heavy is too SCCA for my blood. But I'll spare a thought for the impoverished Ferrari racers who will be able to join us thanks to the stock shock rule. Maybe we should all chip in to buy their kids Christmas presents.

 

Rob, I agree with you, but as John or Alfred said, you can't make rules that make everyone happy. Ultimately, I think it's important to have the rules and schedule as soon as possible, so people can plan for next year. I missed Daytona this year because our plans fell through, and am still very disappointed. At least we get to have this discussion here with the rule makers, that's pretty cool.

 

I agree with Rob Lay. This is a form of entertainment for me. I am not a professional race car driver and not a points chaser. I don't care, if I am first or last. I am racing against myself. The 355's are 16 years old. It's a GOOD DAY, if the car runs.... and a bonus if you finish the race. If I wanted to race professionally, I would race Grand AM or SCCA with another car.

That extra cash you have will be used on keeping the car running! Alternators,wheel bearings,steering rack,driveshafts,valves, belts, clutches, headers,brakes,hoses,electronics(that's another thread),rotors and more rotors.
Just try running a full session with the 355. It takes a pit crew to keep these cars running or a ferrari dealership,
You will see my friend. You will see.

 

Rob

The reason for statement number 2 is that we want the cars to remain stock. There are a host of reasons for this.

You said yourself that given the choice you'd chose shocks. You argued correctly that weight is a hard thing to do. It is. Really the weight is an accommodation.

I don't think we are making rules complicated or overly burdensome, and we are not going to have a foot thick rule book. These are showroom stock racers, so why should we.

We want to encourage you to Remain as stock as is reasonable and we want to favor this in the rules. The main reason for this is cost. I have some experience in putting events together. And I am convinced that cost is the biggest factor.

There is also a few other minor but important other considerations. Ferrari in Italy is tolerating us. There are a lot of political plays they can make. One is to fight us full on. The other is to leave us alone. Still another is to assist us. I don't know what is going to happen, but I don't want a slipper slope were the cars move too far away from stock.

Another factor is one of the central reasons for the FCRA to begin with. The preservation and enjoyment of the cars themselves. The FCRA has actually increased the value of challenge cars in the US. To the extent that it is organized and the cars are preserved it will continue. A highly modified Ferrari is generally not worth more than a stock one. Often it's worth less. The rationale for spending the stupid money to do this when other cars are cheaper is that there is something special about a Ferrari. And I believe there is merit from a value standpoint to preserving these cars.

And guys, really, they are fast enough.

As outspoken as I am, I will not make the decision alone. The website has
the board members. If you feel strongly talk to them. I will certainly relate your ideas. I'm calling a board meeting Tuesday

Please note whatever I am doing, right or wrong, I'm trying my heart out to do what's in the greater good for the program. Despite being a lawyer, I ****ing hate rules myself. It's a necessary evil.

 

Rob

Thrilled you are part of the series. To have a new car join with a real racer is a big plus.

I am looking forward to the 355 battles

 

I recognize that this thread is directed at 355s but thought it appropriate to share some 360 information here.
Rob Schermerhorn does not yet offer a rebuild service for 360 shocks. He is looking for someone to donate a front & rear Mannesmann shock to him so he can do some research? Rob says the top castings are crimped to the shock and may take some special tooling to undue.
A replacement shock from Ferrari is $2549 lis eacht. Makes Motons appear affordable. Robs rebuild service could be months away from having the capability to rebuild 360 shocks.
Would love to hear some input from others?

 

Thank you all for suggesting contacting me regarding supporting your excellent series; I built the first customer 348 Challenge in 1993 and have been following the revival over the past few years. Bravo!

Also thank you John for sharing your vision with me and the opportunity to help competitors continue to enjoy their cars!

This is oh-so true. Here's your test, call a shop inquiring about Penske, Moton, Ohnlins, etc shocks for fitment to your F355, ask about cost, fitment, adapters for the physical installation; those will be easy questions. Now ask about recommended spring rates and matching damping rates to spring and chassis; some will give good answers, many will only have vague suggestions.

This is a valid concern as I do own a region of Hooked On Driving's performance driving school and continue to consult; this is why we schedule rebuilds by appointment. We also take into consideration if the customer's car is in for major service or just shocks. We are totally capable of quick turn around and have done orders virtually overnight but the last thing we'll do is over promise and under deliver.

If for instance the F355 ownership organized and approved a "group buy" deal with us we could offer a dealer discount and reasonable turn around if we can get most of the shocks to land here within a week or two so I can schedule labor accordingly. For in-season servicing sure there's the possibility of delay without prior scheduling but there's that possibility wherever you may try to get service with your F-car. In season maintenance is only oil changes and maybe a seal; if you allow conversion to Schrader valve installation I can teach your own technicians how to do oil changes.

Keep in mind you'll get more from me than you might with another shop: 20 years as a race engineer, driver coach, suspension specialist and seven seasons with 348/ F355/ 360 Challenge as a team manager. Want to make a suspension adjustment during a test day or event, call me and I'll help you over the phone.

Best regards,
Rob

 

We need info on the 360 shocks and what is the most cost effective alternative

 

Rob, I'm sorry you misunderstood my global observations to be local in nature, they were not.

I know for many experienced racers, the challenge of learning, setup and making adjustments work for you is tops on the list of why they race, hence the desire by many to adopt more esoteric mods that may or may not result in a performance improvement.

You need to think about and believe, as I do strongly, in your last observation, it's spot on.

The allowance of Penskes, Motons, Ohlins shocks especially in the 360 and 430 class would allow drivers to learn and improve all aspects of their development without moving the goalposts of performance significantly.

Umm, you need to make up your mind. <grin, just poking fun>

FCRA or any "non spec" series, can't and shouldn't guarantee parity, there are just too many variables.

Racing is inherently a costly sport and most sensible people race at the level their resources allow, otherwise they burn out and go away. The social aspect and communal joy of racing F-cars can attract and hold a lot of people. John and FCRA have proven that.

The reason I posted in the first place is to state that according to the data, open shocks in any class of FCRA will not provide the "mechanical advantage" you fear will cause gaps resulting in lonely races. You have disadvantage several EXISTING FCRA competitors if you try and put THAT genie back in the bottle.

Rob Lay's cogent observation (and John's demonstrated history) of making the entry barrier as minimal as possible to encourage a broad range of participation in FCRA is MOST important. So far, it's been really good.

Start thickening the rule book, playing God (or NASCAR ) with parity adjustments and telling people they can't use commonly available upgrades (shocks, in this case) that don't alter substantially performance because a very few others fear a perceived performance advantage before working on themselves or even determining where their performance places them in relation to other competitors is not a good omen for future growth.

Again, I think if you're coming out to have fun, do it.

I just hope that FCRA hews to the path that so successfully got them to this point.

 

Peter

I agree with a lot if what you say. But I don't agree that we must allow shocks based upon the argument that they make little or no difference. You are missing an important point. The collective wisdom about disallowing them doesn't have to do with the true measure of performance. It has to do with cost. Its NOT an argument that they are more expensive. The shocks are or are not a performance gain that is perceptible. Either way I think they should go, because it's not about the performance of the car, it's about cost and driving well. That we can agree on.

Most people who have bougtht them or haven't agree that they are an advantage. I don't think anyone disagrees that in the aggregate, the cars with all of these modifications (shocks/chip/exhaust/headers, lightened panels) are at least a second faster. A second makes a difference now at the top of the grid, and whether true or not there are a lot of frustrated people in the paddock, and I'vee already seen guys spend $20,000 mid season, and make up this difference based upon this. Was money spent on a perceieved value mistaken? Maybe, but I don't thik that's the point. The point is cost.

And if the fact is that all of these mods are a collosal waste of money, and they do not make a performance difference and everyone wants to buy them for a false "perceived" difference, then Ok I accept that. But if that were true, and they are not a real advantage, then I should be recieving those Christmas gifts early, because we just saved a lot of people a lot of money. Outlawing shocks will not but the series in jeapordy.

Adding 10s of thousands to the perceieved competitive set up costs can kill the series.

Bottom line, if you are right Peter about the shock data, it supports saving the $5-10k, period.

 

If you can't afford 5-10K to make your car handle better and safer and go faster, what are you going to do if you bump into something? If your mass air flow fails? When you need to buy 3 sets of tires at $1800 per set? When you need to buy 100 octane at 7.50+/gallon? When you discover your stock engine is measurably down on power after a year of racing? No one, no one, will be discouraged from entering a great series like FCRA because they might have to buy shocks to run up front. Racing a Ferrari has to be one of the least cost effective forms of amateur racing, no matter what you do. And even in the purely spec series money buys significant advantages - data, coaching, seat time, and on and on. I have no sympathy with whining about the minor expense of shocks.

I'll support whatever you decide, but sorry I think leaving proper race shocks off the cars is a shame. The 5 to 10 k is an investment in the car that you continue to enjoy and learn from. Of course there's an exploitable performance advantage in shocks. Peter's comment makes the point that it's not just bolt on and run, there's more to proper setup.

 

+1. Peter, I agree!!

 

Will

It's not just the shocks. 5-10k in a modification that's not necessary is money. I'm not as wealthy as most, and for me it's a struggle to keep doing this, and for me and other similarly situated I'm trying to find every way I can to save money. I was told too many times, suck it up, Ferrari racing is expensive, if you have to ask you can't afford it. I have been stubborn enough to believe I could design a mire economical way of doing it. And I've taken holy hell for fighting to try to keep costs down.

5 and 10ks add up. Can I find the money, maybe I could but I also want to look after guys who are stretching to do this and who are on the edge. For example , all of the modifications to the 430 to run up front costs $30,000 to $40,000 dollars. That's real money to spend in a 150k car.

I'm looking from the top down with the series. We have a lot of the club guys recruited. Guys with huge talent gaps that are doing this for fun. To most of them, the performance of shocks and other miss don't make that much difference. However there are about 40 cars coming onto the market that were in the challenge series and about 20 challenge drivers that may join. That's a lot of cars and guys in a potential pool who do care about performance. Is 30-40k a difficult pill to ask a new guy to swallow on top of the car? Yes.

I have ideas next year to dramatically cut running costs and I'm working very very hard on this.

 

You went to Daytona. How close were you to Onofrio? I am asking because I don't know. In the past everyone seems to be about even. Check out some of Rob's old videos.

Sebring
[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUyt1P16yAc[/ame]
VIR
[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q4hCNieKuU[/ame]

 

There has been some sort of mutiny at MOTON and their products are temporarily (maybe permanently) unavailable. There is a spin off company named Motion shocks but they are not supplying product yet.

 

Just one other thought to add to ProCaoch's observations. Even if the shock absorber fitment was opened up, there are no assurances that we could actually get the ones suited to fit the 355. Most of these are sourced through factories in the Netherlands (long story) and their supply is notoriously fickle. For example the AST (up market Motons) that were specified for World Challenge were not available until the season was nearly over for something as mundane as a VW Gti. And then only a single set despite an order for 3 sets.

At least DeltaVee has what he needs to get us all to the grid if we give him a reasonable amount of time.

 

John,
I beleive the 360's and the 430's both use the same shocks. There are rwo different stiffness's available the harder called the "alternate" . I have been told all the shocks for Challenge 360's and 430's are made by Sachs. They are quite expensive, I will call the dealer tomorrow and get a cost.

While originallly in favor of open shock specification I have come around to your's and Procoache's way of thinking. You are right about keeping costs as low as possible, it's a benefit to the competitors and the series.

As important, the 3 and 4 way shocks require an expertise in setup and testing which is beyond most amateur teams. Procoach is right implying many teams may actually hurt their setup.
I decided to ask the Team Principle who has won more Challenge Championships than any other team, his opinion; open shocks in our gentleman series (which he is familiar with) would be a disaster. He also beleives the wings and splitters do not require a different shock at the level we are racing, contrary to what I had previously thought ( and stated on an earlier post, sorry for the previous misinformation).

We do need to find a reliable source for repairing and testing the 360 and 430 shocks at a reasonable cost.

Let's try to keep it equal and cost effective.

 

The technical manual I have lists the 360 Shocks as manufactured by "Mannesmann" which may be part of the Sachs company. I am not sure which unit is used on a 430 but do know that uprights and "A" arms are interchangeable between 360 & 430.
All of the race teams that I have worked with used 3&4 way adjustables. In each case an engineer attached all sorts of data recording equipment to the suspension during practice and the shocks were adjusted according to the data collected. This included revalving and changing of spring rates...all very sophisticated procedures for incremental improvements.
I agree with much of what ProCoach has posted. I am finding it may be more cost effective to go with aftemarket shocks for the 360.

 

Moton was bought by AST. Moton is a great brand. AST is having growing pains as they absorb Moton which is a specialty product. I wonder what will happen to the great Moton clubsport and motorsport shock? I have them, love them and hope they survive.

The main USA moton guy left, Lex Carson. He was "THE" man. He never gave a bum suggestion. He has started his own company Motion control systems which no doubt will be an awesome shock because Lex has that ability. MCS is gearing up for production and getting its distributors in line now. The Porsche guys are drooling at the mouth waiting for the new offerings from MCS. There is a lot of demand for the first MCS offerings. The most stability right now and user serviceability right now will be found in Penske.

 

"I decided to ask the Team Principle who has won more Challenge Championships than any other team, his opinion; open shocks in our gentleman series (which he is familiar with) would be a disaster. He also beleives the wings and splitters do not require a different shock at the level we are racing, contrary to what I had previously thought ( and stated on an earlier post, sorry for the previous misinformation)."

I do not intend any offense to you, as you're quoting someone - but the opinion you quote strikes me as one of the dumbest things I've read on this site in a long time. A disaster? Poor, stupid Ferrari drivers, make it easy for them. And the statement about the wing not requiring different shocks or springs - has this expert done any real testing with aero?


"In each case an engineer attached all sorts of data recording equipment to the suspension during practice and the shocks were adjusted according to the data collected. This included revalving and changing of spring rates...all very sophisticated procedures for incremental improvements."

Give me a break. Put some shock pots on the shocks and take the measurements. It's not all that hard and done all the time by all sorts of teams at all levels of the sport, including SCCA.


I should have kept my 612, it would be perfect for the kind of Racing for Dummies series Ferrari folks seem to want. I obviously don't get it.